This is a serious. I know I made thread a little bit sarcastic asking this question.
However, right now I'm making a serious question for nonbelievers.
For what I read most of the nonbelievers in this forum are former christians.
What I want to know what was that turning point in which you realize that christianity was a "myth" and a "fairy tale" (using quotation because these are not my words, not in an offensive manner)?
What was the event which brought the epiphany that because of christianity you were not free?
I already know for what I have read that it has been a very relieving experience for you.
So I just want to know what was the turning point.

TLW

Sorry, for repeating the question three times with different words.
And just a request I would like for this thread not to become in a battle field. I'm honestly curious, so I just want to read. I won't even reply anything.

for many it is this fact right here, religions have allways come and gone, and eventually all been proven wrong, what they fail to realise though is that was agianst the true word of god, it has survived all others and has yeat to BE proven wrong.

for many it is this fact right here, religions have allways come and gone, and eventually all been proven wrong, what they fail to realise though is that was agianst the true word of god, it has survived all others and has yeat to BE proven wrong.

Am I a believer?




Am I a nonbeliever?

Mine was a slow long process. The beginning for me was that I could see that miracles did not happen in our world. To me that meant that they had never happened ever. So if that is the case what kind of person was Jesus if he went around and got followers by basically showing them tricks?


At this same time I was also very bothered by the fact that everything in the Bible talks about how bad wealth is and how we should do everything we can for the poor. I know how the world is set up. Just by my living here in the U.S. I was sinning by the terms of the New Testament.

Anyway many things like this ate away at me over time to open my eyes .

It wasn’t a single event or a ‘sudden epiphany’ for me. It was actually a number of things that continued to accumulate until I finally realized that the story just doesn’t hold water.

I think the very first ‘breakdown’ came from the fact that I never felt the presence of any ‘guiding’ deity in my life, even though I had already accept Jesus Christ as my “Savior”. Actually from my point of view, I wasn’t even so much interested in being ‘saved’ as I was in being given ‘wisdom’ and ‘guidance’.

After all, at that point in my life I was still quite young and hadn’t committed any serious ‘sins’. The sins that I had committed were actually quite petty. Not that I didn’t repent them, but I think that you need to understand they just weren’t the major motivation for me to reach out to God. I wasn’t seeking a free ticket to eternity. I was seeking guidance in life. I took the saying “God will come into your heart” quite literally. And I had good reason too!!!

The people in the churches that I attended were often talking about how God ‘talks to them’. So I was seriously expecting to hear a voice in my head, or at the very least profound visions in my dreams, or at least SOME kind of signal that an external entity is attempting to communicate something to me.

After all I was being taught that god is REAL!!!!

So why should I not expect something REAL???

Well, as time when on, still nothing. I still had to make my own decisions, and find my own path. Sure, I had gut instincts and all of that. But I had that BEFORE I had asked God to come into my life. So the point is that I wasn’t seeing and PROFOUND change.

Moreover, people were always telling me things like, “Oh don’t worry, when God talks to you, you’ll know like you know, like you know, like you KNOW IT!”

Ok, well, if that’s the case then this God definitely isn’t talking to me.

So now I have to ask myself, “Why is this the case?” I know, like I know, like I know, like I KNOW, that I am as sincere about wanting to serve God and be the best person I can be. So why is God REJECTING ME????

Clearly I’m not rejecting God.

But then everyone kept assuring me that God never rejects anyone. If you come to Jesus he WILL ACCEPT YOU!

Ok, I’m at a real dilemma then. I’m not rejecting God, and God isn’t rejecting me. So what’s the problem?

Well, people would start up with the “You just don’t have enough FAITH!”

Now wait a minute???

If you ask Jesus to come into your life he WILL. But not if you don’t believe hard enough???

Ok, I have a major problem with this. If God is REAL then why should God’s existence depend upon my ‘belief’? Clearly I must have believed that God was real if I had asked him into my life in the FIRST PLACE. Why would I have asked God into my life if I didn’t believe he is real????

I don’t know how to believe any HARDER than that. What am I supposed to do? Take a deep breath, hold it, and grunt real hard? Will that help???

No, the idea that I’m not believing hard enough just didn’t do anything for me. I didn’t know how to believe any harder than I already did. I was just waiting for God to respond to my request and I’m not seeing that response or feeling it in any away.

So, ok, I’m a very patient person, and always have been. So I’m not going to call God on this. Maybe he’s taking his good old time for whatever reason. So I began to read the Bible. I wasn’t reading it to ‘find’ God. After all, I already believed in God. I was just reading it to see if I could get a better idea of what God wants from me, and/or mankind in general.

I might add that I was also reading the Bible with the intention of TEACHING it. So I was asking the tough questions. NOT as a skeptic, but as a teacher who would like to be able to answer these tough questions then the students ask them.

Much to my dismay I began to realize that there were no real answers in the Bible. There were no answers to the really tough questions. This began to bother me. I thought this book was complete and had all the answers. This is what I was taught and this is what I BELIEVED. But now that I was seeking to find the answers myself I was seeing that they aren’t THERE!!!

I didn’t leave this to my own studies either. I sought out actual preachers and asked them the same tough questions. And far too often, in fact MORE OFTEN THEN NOT,… I came home from those discussions feeling more empty than before I had asked. Because even the preachers would just beat around the bush and give superficial unsatisfying answers, and as I would continue to press on and explain why their answers weren’t satisfying they would ultimately pull the ‘PREACHER STUNT”. They would just tell me that we need to have faith that God has the answers, then put their hand on my shoulder and bow in a prayer to ask God for wisdom and guidance.

Well that may satisfy them, but it didn’t satisfy me. I wasn’t about to teach something that every time a student asks me the tough questions I would have to say, “You just have to have faith”.

To me that simply means that the Bible has no answers.

And if you want to know the final epiphany was, (the straw the broke the camel’s back), it was the crucifixion of Jesus!

The ultimate unanswerable question. WHO was appeased by the sacrificial slaughter of Jesus?

Well, the bottom line is that God was appeased. Because it is God who is appeased by blood sacrifices. It is God who can’t forgive sins unless there is a blood sacrifice. But WAIT???? WHO is GOD????

Jesus is GOD!!!!

Ok, so Jesus is the blood sacrifice that appeases himself so he can forgive the sins of man, one of which is thou shalt not murder!

When I had this epiphany I tossed my Bible in the burn barrel.

No hatred, no emotion, no anger at all. How could I be angry with a picture of a god that isn’t real?

If I had any anger at all it was with the churches and with the fact that men taught me these lies.

I just realized that this picture of God can’t be true.

Ironically I still believed in God even as I waked away from the “burn barrel” so-to-speak.

I just came to the realization that the biblical story isn’t the true picture of God. When I walked away from the burn barrel I didn’t walk away an atheist. I walked away with God. And God walked with me. And I realized then that God had always been with me the whole time. Even before I was ever born.

That biblical story just has nothing to do with God. That’s all. That’s my epiphany.

(by the way, this is a condensed story for the sake of posting brevity, not to be taken literally in every detail. This process occurred over time. And the “burn barrel” is a metaphor meaning that I realized that the book was no holy or divine, but rather it’s just another piece of ancient mythology)

This all happened when I was in my late teens and early 20’s. I’m 58 years old now, I’ve been at peace in my heart ever since (and prior to that time as well). I’ve since embraced the pantheistic view of God which is simply stated that “All is One”.

I can actually offer a lot of insight into the pantheistic picture. But I’d hate to see it made into a dogma. I prefer to keep it simple. God is omniscient. God is in everything. God is everything. You can never be separated from God. But you can get lost in your ego (which I view as Satan). If you have to give it a name.

Sorry for the long-winded post Miguel, but epiphanies don’t come cheap.

Disclaimer: This is all told by memory. I can’t swear to the exact details, but this is the gist of it. It was over 40 years ago. And I have revisited it many times, only to walk away with the very same conclusion. I just don’t see how the story can be made to work without accepting that God is seriously weird.

No one major epiphany occurred for me; more like a long series smaller ones. Starting at about age 12, a growing awareness of the multi-faceted, multi-cultural world around me motivated me to take interest in other major religions. I soon deduced that they were all very similar in basic structure & moral code, and that no one belief system could lay valid claim to being "the One".

It, of course, didn't help any that I was forced, against my will, to attend Christian churches in my youth. Being the inquisitive child that I was, I soon grew weary of the atmosphere of traditional acceptance, endless pontification & widespread conflictive interpretations created by the "study" of the biblical texts. I distinctly remember thinking, as early as age 7, that it all seemed to be very contrived, and feeling slightly amused. Over the years, that amusement grew into perplexity, then grave concern, and finally pity & sadness, for the poor captives of organized religion. I will never be able to forget the countless incidents of rampant hypocrisy & willful ignorance of the world's cultures, religions and history displayed by the congregations & clergy of the 111 churches, which I have had the dubious honor of attending. Lesson learned: Organized Christianity breeds willful ignorance, passive arrogance, and the discountenance of logic & reason.

After 35 years of avid study in the fields of archaeology, theology, philosophy, world religions, metaphysics, pre/ancient/revisionist history, astrology, and astronomy (in addition to performing in-depth analyses of all available versions of related religious texts, and taking part in many enlightening conversations with various clergy of different denominations, who happened to possess a rare penchant for the Truth), I remain a steadfast believer in a spiritual God, but not one defined by any religious dogma spawned by the contrivances of man.

I like to hear that.

Not that I have anything against atheists, I most certainly don't. But I know the peace and tranquility and joy and happiness that comes from knowing “god”. Not in personified detail, but just in spirituality.

I certainly wouldn’t even begin to attempt to convert a non-believer into a believer. Especially if they are perfectly content and happy being a non-believer. If they are happy with that then more power to them!

The people I feel sorry for, are the ones who have realized that the biblical picture can’t be true, yet they aren’t happy with atheism either. They are just lost without anything. Somehow feeling betrayed by ‘religion’ and therefore not wanting to be stung again by yet another false ‘belief’. Yes at the same time not really being happy with atheism either.

I only wish those people could understand a ‘pantheistic view’ in whatever way works for them. It’s not a matter of trying to ‘kid yourself’. It a matter of the ultimate realization that we really are a part of something bigger, that we truly are all related (even to the animals), and that we belong here.

I also think that once a person truly realizes that they came out of this universe and that they are a part of this universe, then they also must realize than when the body dies they simply go back from whence they came. And if the universe is what they arose from once, then why can they not arise from it again,… and again,… and again,… after all, it is what they are. What else could they be? It is their true essence.

For me, this knowledge has always been innate and intuitive, I merely thought that the biblical God would somehow add to that. Like a genuine ‘separate’ entity from beyond this world that would actually talk to me as a separate and distinct entity.

Actually, from the pantheistic view of god, I’ve always known god. And I’ve always known peace in my heart, and I’ve always felt at home here, and I have always known that this is where I belong. I’ve never felt ‘lost’ or ‘alone’. How can I feel alone when the universe is my mother? No matter where I am she is with me always. She is omniscient.

There’s just no need for an external deity who is appeased by blood sacrifices. It’s just not necessary.

Of course, by Christian standards I am an atheist.

But I don’t see it that way at all. The universe is my spirituality. All living beings are my brothers and sisters. How can I be alone when I have such a humongous family? The spirit of the universe fills me. It is the essence of that which I AM.

you said that brilliantly!

and i thank you!

Now.... this is more like it ,Abra....

No bashing ... just sharing

((((((ABRA))))))

(((ABRA)))

Thanks for sharing also, Rabbit...

Actually I am a deeply spiritual person.

Sometimes I'm a real klutz in the way I express myself.

I’m going to try to be more tactful about that.

But that’s not going to change my fundamental position.

I'll still be making the same points.

I'll just try to make them more palatable.

Thanks for sharing also , Nordling......


You and others sharing here , helps us to better understand ,why some don't believe.

you see people how easy is just to share. Now if we can keep this same format in all the threads this would be a more friendly place for all of us.

The idea of this great invisible creature that has ultimate power but does not use it for good instead uses it for his selfish purposes was my first hint. The illogicalness of the beginning of man by incestuous relationships and other stories in the bible. Then after that I became aware of the hypocrisy of the faith. Because they believe they can do whatever they want to do daily but be forgiven on Sunday at church. Judging others has unworthy but they are the same as others. Then the cherry on top was the alienation of homosexuals from the faith. Those are the few I can think of off the top of my head.

Like I have said before the freedom I felt the day I was sure that the christian way was not the right way for me is the day my spirit truly started to live. So I know I made the right choice for me.

I thank you Miguel for starting this thread and making it possible to share "reasons why I don't believe" by simply asking that question.

However, I still get personally attacked in the open forums when I posts my reasons why I don't believe.

It's like it's ok to state them if someone asks. But if no one asks then I'm expected to keep my thoughts to myself.

I have said it before. the problem starts when people think they are the ultimate owners of the truth.
I really believe the ultimate owner of the truth is God. We just can get glances of the truth.

My Path through Christianity to My current concept of God:

I abandoned Christianity at a very early age when Sunday School teachers could not answer to my satisfaction my questions about why Joshua killed women and children at the battle of Jericho. The reason given, that they were “evil” and sinners did not make sense to me, especially when they continued to tell me that we were all “sinners.”

This worrisome idea was patched up with the story, that those who accepted Jesus as their savior would be saved and would go to heaven. So naturally I said, “Hey count me in on that, where is this guy named Jesus?”

Well , turns out he died a horrible death on the cross to save me from my sins and I felt very sad and guilty about all of that but there was not much I could do about it since I was only about six years old, and besides, I did not live back in those days, and I was not even born then.

You can see how confusing this is to a small child.

Then I became concerned that my parents were going to hell because they did not go church. I really did not fancy going to heaven without my parents. I asked my mom if she was saved and she wondered why I asked her that, and I told her that the people at church told me that if you were not saved you would be going to hell. I did not want her to go to hell and I was extremely upset. At this point my mother stopped forcing me to go to Sunday school, and I was thankful for that and I went back to my happy childhood life.

And then of course the second and third grade gave way to the Santa Clause incident. I learned that the story of Santa Claus had all been an elaborate lie and I was shocked and horrified that my parents perpetrated these lies. I would have never believe that ridiculous story except that I did trust my parents to tell me the truth. They did not. I felt quite betrayed.

That is when I realized that if my parents could lie to me about Santa Clause, then those Church people could very well be lying about Jesus. Even at that age I considered all the possibilities.

I decided that I believed in God but I don’t think I liked him very much for killing all those people in Jericho. I did consider the idea that those stories in the Bible were not true, but I found it difficult to believe that grown-ups believed in all that stuff.

So Jesus and the Biblical God was placed into the category of myth, the same as Santa Clause, and the existence of God became highly suspect.

However I still knew there was something that needed to be addressed. Where did I come from, and how did I exist. How high was the sky, how big was the universe, how long is infinity, and where did all this stuff come from?

So I made it my pledge to always ask these questions and evaluate the answers. To read everything and explore any possibilities, and to never be taken in by the stories of men, churches or any other so-called authority. My purpose was to not reject or accept anything, but to evaluate and consider everything until I found the answers.

I thought I found the answer in the religion of light and sound, called Eckankar for a few years, but left that path when I felt the oppressive hand of a cult in the making. Later that group was exposed for the blatant lie it is. I was long gone from it by then, but many people who had spent years involved in it had their core belief system shattered to pieces by several books that were released about the scandals and lies involved with the movement. (The book to read on that would be “Confessions of a God seeker.”)

But it was not that book or the abandonment of Eckankar that changed my core belief system and my concept of God.

I read something that stated that God did not exist. Something about that statement rang true, but I did not know what it was. That shocked my core belief system and changed my concept of God as a being or personality and more of a consciousness expressing Itself in many things.

The God that did not exist was the picture of a personality sitting on some throne in Heaven. The true picture of God was so different from that, that no mind could grasp a picture of it.

At first I felt alone in this new view of God, and then I felt free, but with a feeling of lot more personal responsibility. It was a feeling of “We are all in this together.”

Then I envisioned a host of personalities that were manifestations of God that all worked together in the creation of the universes. I imagine that these universes are run something like governments are run, with lots of personalities everywhere.

That is my view of the universes and they all exist within this one great consciousness that is the heart, mind, and consciousness of God.

That is the short version too.

JB

Thats is an excellent spiritual autobiography JeannieBean I've also found some fascinating stuff about that Eckankar group you were a part of.Your always interesting