I think you did the right thing. He simply wasn't right for you. I would not say he was a bad guy or didn't/doesn't love you............you simply have very strong opinions on the subject that are completely contradictory. Maybe he thought he could live with your decision, and found out that he couldn't. It happens. It doesn't mean he is a jerk, or that he intended to try and sneak his way in.

Don't get me wrong, I see and respect your point, but this is his life we're talking about here too, not just yours and your sons. If he won't marry someone he has not lived with for a period of time first, that is as important as you not living with someone until you are engaged/married. It doesn't make him a bad person................nor does it mean he doesn't love you, or didn't.

Marriage takes much more than love to work anyway. Again, I think you did right by sticking to your guns, if it is that important to you do not go back on it, but also realize that others do not have to concede to your wishes, they have their own interests as well..............and I figure he was scared to commit without first seeing what living together was like.

People do change, things are different, once you begin to live together...........that is a fact. So, it isn't so ridiculous for someone to want that.

Again, you have a son, and you don't want to bring someone into the home and have a life together, just for them to up and leave in a few months or whatever.........and that makes sense to.

Time to part ways. Which is what you did. I just wanted to point out that their are two sides to this story, and just as his "feelings" are not more important than yours, I don't get some of the people's mentality on here saying that yours is more than his.

It is a simple matter of different values, a good reason to break off a relationship.

Exactly! I've worked at Walmart during black Friday, and they know.......... They know customers will be rude, and even possibly fighting over merchandise on the shelf. The whole system encourages it. WE have so many of this product but you have to be the first here to get it..............

I think the stores should be held responsible for it.If they are going to have these kinds of sales knowing the crowds, etc., then they should be responsible for making sure it is safe.

By the way, this may be the first time someone was killed, but it isn't the first time someone was injured...............

Well, any "list" I've every made is just the beginning..........just becaues you have those characteristics, or think you do, doesn't mean you are a match for me.

Besides, when you bring in the "attractive" or "hot" or "smoking" into it, every person has a different definition of what is good looking to them. So YES, you must be physically attracted to the person, but that doesn't mean you have to look like Brad Pitt, there are plenty of women who don't find him attractive.

The thing is that some men don't care what they look like at all. They dress sloppy, don't keep their nails clean, don't care if their hairstyle is flattering, etc.

Work with what you've got.

My room mate from several years ago fell in love with and married a guy that I thought was absolutely ugly, lol. Short, fat, and balding at the age of twenty-three. He didn't have a very good attitude imo, either...........but she fell for him.

Stop blaming it on the opposite sex, it is you. Either you are putting out the wrong vibes and/or not being your true self.....................or you are the one being picky.

Or, the alternative, you aren't ready/meant to have anyone in your life right now. Live life for you, get involved in things that interest you, take care of yourself for yourself, and...........well it is more likely that you'll meet someone who cares about kids if you are volunteering for say..........an orphanage or something.

PS

You'd be surprised what women (and some men) are actually attracted to. It is more so their attitude, the way they carry themselves, the way they communicate, sense of humore, outspoken, confidence. Etc.

Most people associate this with "good looks" but it isn't true, it is simply that these qualities come easier to those with good looks, because those who view themselves as unattractive are not as confident, do not put themselves out there, are afraid of rejection, etc...............

Get it?? I hope so.

Yes, looks matter, but to say that you have to look like Barbie, or that you have to look like ........can't even think of a man..........Let's use Brad Pitt again, is just ridiculous.

Yes, if you are dog ugly, if people cringe to look at your face, you are going to have issues in the romance department, but if your normal/average.................it boils down to your personality.

It isn't everyone else that doesn't think you are good enough, it is you, and you are sending out those vibes. Which means only users and abusers, or people who feel sorry for you are going to respond. At least that is my opinion.

Of course, if you are an average guy/girl, and you are looking for a hot model type..........well, frankly depending on what that person is looking for, you may have to become famous and powerful. There are plenty of hot actresses who are with not so hot looking guys, Jennifer Lopez being one, her guy isn't all that when it comes to looks. he's ok, but not "hot"............but anyhoo, I've said my peace.

I agree. I think that if you are at the step of asking/accepting marriage then you'd better be sure that is what you want.

As far as an engagement.........it could be a month to six, or however long it takes for you to get your wedding plans in order. For someone who has mega bucks and wants a big shin dig, it can be done in three months or less..............

If you want something simple, with only close relatives, then you may not need too long.... BUT, if you want a specific place, a certain person performing the marriage, relatives to fly in from ten buck two..........well, all that takes time to coordinate.

I never said "free will" existed.............of course when you have choices that are available to you, you can exercise your choice...........but what about those that are unavailable??

I do not believe "God" to be a person, or even a being, or that "God" has a personality as we do. I think we make "God" up.........God, is all in all to me. Not a person, but a compilation. I do not believe God is magical, or that he/she/it will intervene in my life for any reason.

I certainly have a personal relationship with "God" as "God" is a part of me.........but so does everyone else on the planet. I do not feel the need to separate myself from them, I am them, they are me...........I am just separated by this body, and a mind that things in linear terms...........

Anyhoo, I don't have it all figured out, nor do I claim what I "believe" to be factual or truth for everyone.

Feral, you asked what we believed, and I told you. As a matter of fact, what I believe now could change tomorrow........especially if I learn or experience something that changes the way I think.

Change, it is the only constant.

Well, there are several books that are still here that are that old. Besides, the "Bible" is not all 2000 years old, and you should know that. The Bible was not all written at the same time, some of it was written even a hundred of more years after Christ's death. It was certainly put together, as the books of the Bible are a compilation of lots of book gathered together by man to attain a certain agenda, well after Christ's death................

And you can't believe in Jesus Christ as a savior without the Bible as an authority. Which is ok.......you can use it, I just don't like it when people argue that it is the word of God, as if the word of God could be contained in a book, but when you bring that up, people say of course all of God's words can't be contained therein..........but if that is the case, then you are missing something.

Anyhoo, there is no valid argument that the Bible is anymore the "word of God" than the Koran........or any other such writings that claim the same.

One thing about "facts" is a lot of them change depending on who you ask.

Most facts mean little outside the realm of mathematics, and even that is questionable.

Most scientific "facts" are simply theories backed up with things that collaborate that theory.

We go to war out of fear.

Fear of losing what is "ours".

Fear of not having enough.

Fear of not surviving in ways we think we deserve.

We got to war out of greed.

In order to feel more "safe" we feel we must have more, so we take from those around us, to feel more secure.

There is a possibility of peace...........and it exists. Maybe someday, in a few decades, I doubt it seriously.

When souls get tired of the slaughter and the killing, and realize that one way is as good as another....and that we are not the sum of our parts (including our possessions), then maybe..................

I completely understand your point of view.........and I agree that collaboration should exist between parent and child, but though I'm not sure that the child that the OP is referring to is this bad............there comes a point when the child becomes both verbally and abusive to everyone around them, not just you, but to the other siblings as well............and without some sort of guiding force, it will carry on.

I do not see a swat on the bottom, without yelling screaming or anger, as being violent.....but some would differ, and of course "spanking" means different things to different people. When I was a child a "spanking" was with a belt.

When it comes to "spank" or "not to spank" I think you need to define what a spanking is to you. It needs to be controlled, and no anger. It isn't meant to cause pain, but rather a sort of "shock" back to reality. If it leaves a mark, then you have a problem. Of if you're yelling and screaming......then the child is going to focus on your anger anyways.

You also have to ask yourself if it is necessary. You can't have your kid going around punching people, and if a time out doesn't work, what do you do?

You try empathizing, and listening. You let them know that they are important, and their feelings are important. You make them a priority, yes.

You will make mistakes, yes.......you also need to forgive yourself for those, otherwise the stress and such will come out within your family.

The home needs to be a safe haven for everyone, not just the children. Sorry, abuse of the parents is just as unacceptable to me, as abuse of a child. If it is going on steps need to be taken, but that doesn't mean you begin abusing.

I have swatted my son, on the bum, and it didn't even hurt him, I was calm and told him to stop what he was doing.........and it has worked. He didn't even shed a tear, but realized what he was doing was not ok.

However, if you are "spanking" you child, and they "disconnect" from you.............then what you are doing is harming your relationship.

There is, imo, a right way and a wrong way to deal with children, and if you are alienating them..........then whatever you are doing is not going to work.

However, what may alienate one child, doesn't another. Some children are hurt from a look......... You need to recognize when they have disengaged from you, and evaluate your own actions/words.

Though, Jess, I'd be interested in carrying on this convo in private. Maybe you could share some "practical" ideas with me. It may be that your way is better.......and I could learn from you.

I can only share what has worked for me, and as has been said, every child is different.

I think the most important thing is communicating with your child and keeping that connection alive.

Agreed, but in that "scream" can also be a child, who because things haven't worked out the way they want them to (usually the way that makes them feel safe, granted) they try to control the entire situation.............

Compassion, yes, but that doesn't mean you allow the child to run all over you and take control of your household.

(I messed up my quotes somehow, so I just erased them)

Not being argumentative, but just throwing my views out there........it all depends on the goals and the situation for me.

If a 23 year old is still living at home, but helps out with bills, has a job or is going to college. Takes care of his responsibilities, I see nothing wrong with it.

It isn't necessarily a sign of a mooch. It actually makes perfect economic sense. IF, you are not married, and you get along with your parents and you respect each other's boundaries, why not live at home?? It give more and better opportunity to save money for the future.

Besides, many cultures and sub-cultures encourage this, and with today's economy many grown people are having to move back home because things are simply too expensive.

As I said, it depends on the circumstances. Simply being 23 and living at home isn't necessarily a bad thing to me.........

Happiness is a choice. It doesn't come from things or even others. All someone else can do is add to your happiness, they can not make you happy.

Unhappiness is a choice as well, though most people don't realize this. I have a theory that when someone is unhappy it is because they are unhappy with themselves but either refuse to/or they haven't learned to look at themselves objectively to find out the source of their unhappiness, so instead they seek out quick fixes (which I believe have been mentioned), but they are just that and never last.

However, if you were to look at it from a biological perspective, your brain has pathways, and certain ways of thinking causes........roadways, and once a roadway has been built is like being stuck in a "rut". Your natural state is in that rut, and you have to work to get yourself out of it, but after a while of working out of it, your brain then creates new pathways and your natural state again changes.

Looking outside yourself for happiness always leads to unhappiness.

Oh, I've never done it "in bed", it's usually was at the grocery store, when I simply wanted his attention, and once in the kitchen when I wanted him to hand me something...........

If it was in bed, I'm not sure there could be an explanation that would make it "ok". I'm not sure I could forgive that easily.

Simple enough for me, maybe I should trade, lol.

I can't date someone who:

doesn't have a sense of humor.

doesn't have integrity.

doesn't have goals in life.

doesn't want to grow or change.

is rude to others simply because they can be.

still thinks the world revolves around them.

refuses to listen to ideas that are not in agreement with theirs.

who doesn't exercise their brain.

who is satisfied with the level of education (including learning form life) that they already have.

who is unwilling to try new things.

who feels they have already "attained".

who isn't kind or compassionate.

who doesn't love kids/people.

That is where you are mistaken..........it even makes perfect sense to me when put in context with the idea of an all powerful, all knowing, creator of everything "God".

In order for "God" to be any of those things he has to be "IN" everything, does he not. In my views "God" is not something unto himself, but rather part of him is in everything, as the "creator". I simply do not associate "God" with being a him, or a diety outside of myself. "God" isn't something that I have to reach out to, or to follow certain formulas to try and please, "God" is what give me life, gives me breath, he is everything and nothing all at the same time......................

Pantheistic, you may label it as you wish.............but I can't see how it is so hard to see. I mean, even the Bible talks about nature being "Gods Handiwork" the difference is that others who read the Bible, and some who wrote pieces of it, put their own personal spin on the nature of "God". They assumed because "bad" things happened, that "God" must be jealous, etc. They actually gave him human qualities.........but yet "he" is supposed to be above all that.....

We both know, or should, that I do not hold the Bible to be an end all holy book written by God through man's hand, so to use it as an authority is pointless............however to use some of the principles and to argue the logic makes sense to me for some reason.

I came to my conclusions, on what I feel is the base of what I truly believe, using my mind, my experiences, the world around me, and the Bible....... But as always your interpretation (YES, whenever anyone reads or hears anything and logs it away into their brain they are interpreting the information and putting into context in ways that make sense to them) is somehow right and mine is wrong..........

Anyhoo, you can have your view........... What you believe in order to sleep well at night and have purpose for your life is good with me. The same goes for me, I believe what I do because it makes sense to me, because it gives peace to my soul and makes life worth living in my mind...........

That is all spiritual/religion(though I feel religion is also a form of control)/and philosophy is. Us trying to make sense of the world around us and to give explanation to the unexplainable. To survive both physically/mentally/and emotionally in a harsh world.

You have 12 kids, but you do not have THIS kid, and you do not have the same exact circumstances either...........BTW, Jesus used a whip in the "House Prayer turned to a Den of Theives", Jesus did and said a lot of things to people that wasn't necessarily desired by them...........but anyhoo.

My advice to you is to tell your friend to seek counseling for your daughter. She is going through a hard time, her world is crumbling before her eyes and there isn't anything she can do about it.

HOWEVER, this is not the time for your friend to back down on boundaries and consequences. Stay consistent with what you say and what you are doing.

Children are not robots, they have feelings and they have their own personalities.

She has temper tantrums, that is not the time to give her a "consequence" that is the time to teach her emotion control techniques. A time out is ok at this time to help her calm down, but not as "punishment".

If you or I, or your friend, are so upset that we are yelling and screaming punishing us, or trying to get us to follow "rules" really doesn't make logical sense.

Understand her feelings, let her know she is heard, tell her that it is ok to be angry, to be mad, but it is not ok to be abusive. Give her the proper ways to express her anger. Help her use her words. Be empathetic not judgmental of her feelings.

However, do not let her become the authority in the house, or it will be hell getting it back............

I have a five year old son, that has been through hell the past two years ( moved, divorced, doesn't see his dad much, etc.) and I have an 8 year old daughter, she has issues, but they both handle it in their own way. My daughter is managable, my son..............we're working on it.

Don't let anyone tell your friend she is a bad mom........she obviously cares. She needs help and support and ideas on how to manage this. It isn't easy.

I am not against a swat on a child's behind......and have personally begun to give my son one, but only under a few conditions........when he hits me. Yes, he hits me.....and I think it is fair to show him what being hit is like, but it is on his bottom and not so hard to cause much pain, just enough to shock him into reality. He has also started cussing me, which he gets a gentle pop to the mouth, nothing to cause pain, just to let him know that what just came out of his mouth is unacceptable. This seems to be working more than time outs did..................trust me I tried them for over a year and was consistent............

Each and every child is different, and what works for one may not work for another................

Some good books I've read, and I've had to combine their theories as one didn't work.

"1 2 3 Magic", teaches spanking is wrong on any level, but I did it.......if done right you may not have to spank, but as I said each child is different, my son doesn't mind "time outs" as he can entertain himself with his fingers........so they are good to use to calm him down or get him out of a heated situation, but as far as a "consequence" it doesn't work.

"Love and Logic", teaches you to give your child choices, choices that are within your control, such as "Would you like to take your time out in a chair, or on the couch?", it also teaches that as your kids get older you let natural consequences teach them how to behave, and you allow them to take responsibility for their own actions.

"The Explosive Child", was good for me, because mine has a huge temper and is very strong willed......it teaches the philosophy that kids do well when they can. If your child is struggling it is time to figure out what the causes are and then teach them skills to help them, not punish them. If someone loses their temper on a regular basis, it isn't because they are a bad person/kid, it is because they have never learned to control their anger, they have never learned what they CAN do in place of what is not acceptable.

Anyhoo, people who are ragging about the "English"...........please. This lady is asking for help about a child, and all your concerned about is whether she uses punctuation. Don't you think if she was good at English she would have used it. Egotistical if you ask me, and VERY RUDE.

It is in no way rude for someone to communicate in ways that they know how, seeking help and advice.

No worries. It is all a matter or perspective. There are times the mind and heart are clear, and there are others where debri needs to be cleared.......this was my way of cleansing.

Of course, he did see and so did I, or our souls would never have met............and I would not have been changed by the experience as I was........however, you can have a moment or even several of clear vision, but there are things in life that can cloud in if you let it........how many of us do?

Thanks everyone for reading, and your kind words of encouragement..........

I suppose I am no ones friend, then. I do not know anyone that I would "die" for. Your life, my life, everyone's life is of the same value to me. Don't get me wrong, if you are trying to harm someone close to me, I will do my best to protect them..........but I never did understand the idea that it isn't love unless it is willing to sacrifice itself..............we are one, we are the same, to save your life but give my own has the same effect as you giving yours for me..........where does it end?

IMO,a friend is someone who loves you without remorse, someone you can share yourself with and be accepted, who will encourage you, and even give you a reality check when you need it.........

Pretty close to my "beliefs". I believe that everything and everyone is part of what is. The boundary lines are temporal, and can even be crossed. I am "god" you are "god", and we are all the same. What that "same" is, well.......that I haven't felt compelled to have a concrete belief about.