The ontological argument doesn't prove a God but does point to an initial cause.

1. what ever begins to exist has a cause.
2. the universe began to exist
3. the universe has a cause.

Another argument is that only nothing can come from nothing.

Without God, morals and ethics are an arbitrary development with no real significance.

The concept of God is that God transcends time and space. Some call this the god of the gaps as Richard Dawkins puts it. If there's no physical answer insert "god" is his assertion.

As we may know, the universe is not and can not be infinite. For there to be a literal infinity backwards in time it would literally be impossible to arrive in the present and yet here we are!

The bible is full of contradictions errors and inconsistencies but it was penned by various different authors which had varying beliefs. That explains the contradictions. There is still free will that God voluntarily gives which shows the will of the authors. The 10 commandments of the old testament is what God literally wrote. Jesus simplified these commandments in two commandments: Love God and Love your neighbor. Love fulfills the commandments.

This subject is a passion of mine and have read the works of Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and am currently reading Bertrand Russell and I greatly admire these men. I would like to recommend Dr. William Lane Craig's book Reasonable Faith which uses philosophy to explain the existence of God. Dr. Craig Has debated many atheist, agnostic and former Christians and is widely know as the best the faith has in defending Christianity. Many of these videos are on Youtube and Google and can be purchased from his site. Even if one strongly disagrees the the concept of God, the books and videos make for great reference for knowing the other side of this debate.

Trust me, I'm well read in the atheistic arguments and many do present some good arguments, but none of them successfully disprove the existence of God which I understand is NOT part of their argument. They believe that there is simply no good reason to believe that God exists.

hahahah You're the best!

No you didn't. I'm guilty of making assumptions since I started a thread on a touchy subject. Sorry.

lol. I'm just getting my thoughts out! Trying to be real as possible.

Hi Jane. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I feel our conversation is to my benefit in getting my thoughts out so others can get to know me, so I'll respond further to simply elaborate and not with any ill intent. This is, of course, an important topic.




Well, Jane the fact is there are no guarantees. I may emphasize the negative only because it's the negative we have to prepare for! If someone surprised you with a million dollars it is most probable that it will not affect you negatively, so there are no need for contingency plans. We all know what we'd do with that money. For those that love kids, a huge some of money can be seen as comparable and if that child is born healthy, it's worth more than anything.



Yes, I focused on the word demanding since, in my perception, it screams of selfishness (we all are in our own way) and the fact that that word appeared first and privilege last. I think that's telling of you. I think you may have a Pollyanna attitude and may over emphasize the positive. Some children ARE born sick, but this isn't my main concern in not having children. I simply can't deal with the healthy child either!

On my mother's side she has a large family and I've been surrounded with children. When I was living with my very soon to be ex-wife her brother who has a 3 yr. old, a one year old and a newborn lived with us. I couldn't deal with the kids screaming and crying in the middle of the night especially when I have work the next day! Maybe I'm selfish in that I don't want to compete with a child for attention because once a woman has a child it generally appears that the child comes before anything else. The wife becomes a mother and intimacy diminishes and understandably so. Well, I simply don't want that! Then there are the Teenage years. Need I say more?



Ahhh, that's a good stab in the dark but not true. Since you overemphasize the positive (and that's good for you!) you gloss over my divorce. Had I had a child I'd a)be tempted to outlast the misery for the sake of the child or b) get divorced affecting the child. How is this good? The fact that the future looks bright IS because I don't have the concerns of a child! lol

Also keep in mind, this isn't my first relationship! With My current ex the relationship lasted 9 years; before that I had a 2 yr. relationship and before that a 6 yr relationship. I lived with all the women. The two yr. relationship ended because, among other issues, I didn't want children. In the six yr. relationship we didn't have children and the same with my last relationship. I think the divorce has little or nothing to do with my attitude towards children.

All my friends have children and even the ones that wanted children will quickly relent on how difficult it is especially in these hard economic times. I just have my own mouth to feed and my decision will not affect a child of my own.

I have two close friends who are in miserable relationships strictly because of the children. How is this good? Let's not forget that an overwhelming number of marriages end in divorce! So, the odds prove that relationships generally don't last. Why put a child through this? What if I had kids in all the relationships I've mentioned? Just based on the facts, I'll again accuse you of having a Pollyanna attitude; but, if this works for you then good luck and godspeed!

The ex I was with for two yrs. got her wish - she had twins! Her child birth was so traumatic and bloody that she is left with internal vaginal scarring that now makes sex incredibly painful for her. You can't make this stuff up! lol Her current boyfriend has since backed out of marriage, although they remain together for the sake of the children and they no longer have sex. I'm sorry, but I'm just too young to go without sex 'forever'.



The point that I made previously still stands. The Queen is not an average person and I'd still say she has no guarantee at what happens at her death but I will concede that it is most probable that she will have the people around her that she wants.

Like I said, It's not my intent to change minds but I feel that both marriage and kids are overrated and have been pushed upon us through society. We simply don't live in a day and age where relationships last. Then to tie ones financial future to a fleeting partner seems outright irresponsible! How much more worse is it to involve children!

I'm firm in my stance and feel that I've allowed logic to follow to it's conclusion: children and marriage are a tremendous risk, but some people do win lottery, right?

Thanks for reading.

No, I'm definitely not deceiving myself. We are both right in our opinions. The point is that there are no Guarantees. There are no guarantees that ANYONE will be there when we pass on or that the way children are raised will determine their outcome. I think you maybe guilty of wishful thinking or you have a really close family or both.

"that is the "pauper" point of view!!! Do you really think the Queen of England doesn't know who will be around when she passes on???"

The queen is far from the average person and no, I don't have her wealth or power. This is the exception and not the rule.


There are many who have been raised right and turn out wrong. To deny this seems naive. It's all a gamble, but what's NOT a gamble is knowing that I don't want children and as a result I will certainly not bring forth a degenerate into this world.

"There's nothing selfish in demanding some attention in arranging the elderly parent's well being."

That sounds quite selfish in my perspective. Look at your choice of words! lol Emphasis on the word demanding. I rest my case. lol

Furthermore we are assuming that we will live a ripe old age. Nothing in this life guarantees that. My ex's father died in '82 at 54 yrs of age from a heart attack during surgery for a unrelated issue.

I'm glad you enjoy your kids and family and would never attempt to take that away from you, but there are many people who shouldn't have kids as well as people like me who simply don't want the responsibility. For goodness sakes, I'm getting divorced! I can't imagine how difficult having kids would be right now.

Thanks for the encouragement!

I love a civil debate so I'll answer your questions.

1.) Depriving the world of an Einstein? Einstein existed despite the fact that many children die in child birth as well as children who do survive child birth but die early in life anyway. I could also deprive the world of another Charles Manson or Jack the ripper. There's no way of knowing.

2.) Having a child for the sake of it taking care of you seems rather selfish. There is also no guarantee that one's children will get along with the parent. There are many dysfunctional families and many old people who die alone. We can't pick who will be around us when we pass on. Another situation out of my hands. I'll try to make more friends instead..

I think my second point answers your third question.

lol. I simply wouldn't know! :)

It was there before. The moderators must have removed it. It's a good thing I got it in time. Thanks again!

Thank you VERY MUCH!

Well, world government hasn't solidified yet so it isn't old.

no problem! Thanks!

lol

All I have to say about politics is New World Order. A rich few control the world.

Thanks! I'd appreciate a link to that forum if possible.

Thanks for the encouragement, ladies! :)

Hi all. Newbie here

Yes, for me, someone that has multiple marriages would make me think twice. I bet these people with multiple marriages blame all the spouses for the divorce. People with multiple marriages either A) have REALLY bad luck B) Have poor taste in partners or C) there is something not right with them. Regardless of the above options, all the options are not good and would immediately through up a flag.I'm my soon to be ex-wife's (Just waiting for the state to send the official papers)second marriage. Three times a charm? Um, no. As for me, I don't see myself getting married again so I don't risk the chance of multiple marriages. But, I guess anything could happen...

I would think that there are a lot of guys that don't want kids but wind up getting someone pregnant. For women, I think it's a biological urge.