of course the first thing on the list is that God and or faith has never regrown a lost limb or given a limb to anyone not born with them

God and/or faith has never answers the prayers of the amputee

Well yes, that’s seems to be what has been taking place. You essentially gave me an entire arsenal of ammunition. Before the bible was just annoying. Now I can prove it to be irresponsible and contradictory.

That’s not true at all. If you are incapable of AT LEAST demonstrating proof of Creationism on the same level that scientists have been showing in support of biological evolution, then there is no reason to accept your claims. Period

Evolution says NOTHING about non-living matter changing into living matter, this further highlights your lack of comprehension of the theory.

tisk tisk Eljay,


The premise of your refutation is wrong so everything past it is also wrong.

'eljay',

The theory of evolution doesn't have to MUTATE into fact, it already is nothing other than an overwhelming mountain of facts, and nothing other than facts.

I.D., the mutated form of creationism, has no fact, and all faith.

Theory of Evolution's mountain of facts need not wait for your approval before drawing factual conclusions about its moutain of 'evolution' proof.

You and your creationist friends have ludicrously attempted to pass 'evolution' as faith!!!

That is plain and simple desperation. And it has failed miserably where it matters: review the Dover case, and nearly a hundred othe such cases, including one Supreme Court judgement.

'Macro' evolution is a disingeneous fabrication of the creationist camp. It has long been demonstrated that there is only evolution, regardless of size or stage.

How can you STILL sit there and keep claiming that one, when your own camp has given up on it.

The simple REAL question to the creationist camp that killed this disingeneous deceitful claim, was simple enough:

'... CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE CLEARLY WHERE IN THE GENOME, MICRO EVOLUTION OCCURS, AND THE SPECIFIC STAGE WHERE IT BECOMES 'MACRO', AND STOPS OCCURING??? ...'

The creationists would need to finally start making sense, enter a lab, start testing scientifically, in order to come back with tangible testable findings.

How can you keep saying the other guys factual demonstration is wrong, without ever explaining and demonstrating your claim???

No answer. No counter argument. No comeback.

Nothing to substantiate your claim.

That what becomes a deceitful pursuit!!!

The 'Micro' and 'micro' noise, is nothing other than a negative argument, and a most deceitful pursuit.

It stands on nothing.

It cannot be argued scientifically, and it has the pretention of attacking real evidence, facts, and proof in science, without ever justifying its attacks.


YOU AGREE WITH YOUR MICRO-EVOLUTION FABRICATION,

YOU AGREE WITH EVOLUTION PERIOD.

Sorry that you keep insisting that the Human part must agree with the verbatim of your Adam and Eve book, but neither FICTION nor FAITH will ever be compatible with facts.

Sorry that you keep insisting that the Human part must agree with the verbatim of your "Origin of the Species" book, but neither FICTION nor FAITH will ever be compatible with facts.

I have spent the last 8 months reading the bible at the request of religious zealots on these forums (you were one) and I have completed the OT and read about a third of the new although the new is very disappointing. Every time I voice a new contradiction or concern or error or depiction of misogynistic tyranny, I am told to read the bible...its circular.

So Eijay what you are saying is that we didn't evolve from a chimpanzee, monkey type animal at all.

That there is no chance that we came from anykind of monkey type or other animal at all.

That perhaps you agree we were humans all along, but maybe just didn't stand up straight, or had more hair.

What is your conclusion and belief on how we as a human evolved millions of years ago?

Objectivity needs open mindedness.
It means to consider all possibilities.
If you can't do that, you can't be objective.
If I wanted to, I could for every belief of mine find facts to support it, just by looking into websites, books, what ever that just bring forth the arguments I want to belief and hear.
But that's not the way it works because I would create my own reality exclusionary to other facts.
It would be a very lonely place to be.

The Bible's tools to determine what was or what wasn't?

1. Accounts written by historians or writers with slightly exaggerated imagination to attract more followers.

2. Eyewitnesses that have contributed to the writings of the bible that help add accounts to some of the wars the people had to experience to make it more believable.

3. Sages/pilgrims that studied recent mythologies of Egypt/Greek/Roman to create a new stories and a foundation that worked against Jesus's actual teachings. Remember the Jews and the Roman's didn't like how Jesus challenged their belief system. Roman Emperor Constantine believed he was a God and the Jews didn't like their Torah to be questioned. Therefore, both agreed to put an end to Jesus who truly was teaching how to coexist together peacefully and was used as bait in the end to ground the very foundation (christianity) that he didn't want to happen.

Therefore the bible can't possibly tell us anything about evolution as it is not a book intended to do so. First the people at the time didn't have the technology to do so and second the book is primarily a book of recent imaginative writers who had knowledge in recent mythologies and mixed it in with accurate accounts of happenings at the time to make it believable.

***************************************************************************

The Evolutionist's tools to determine the history of our past as of evolution.

1. Recorded documents cross examined with the big three methods of research. The big three are:

a. Archaeology - the study of bones, arrowheads, fragments of pots, oystershell middens, figurines and other relics that survive as hard evidence for the past. In evolutionary history, the most obvious hard relics are bones and teeth, and the fossils they eventually become.

2. Renewed Relics - records that are not themselves old but which contain or embody a copy or representation of what is old. In human history these are written or spoken accounts, handed down, repeated, reprinted or otherwise duplicated from the past to the present. In evolution, I shall propose DNA as the main renewed relic.

3. Triangulation - This name comes from method of judging distances by measuring angles. Take a bearing on a target. Now walk a measured distance sideways and take another. From the intercept of the two angles, calculate the distance of the target. Some camera rangefinders use the principle, and map surveyors traditionaly relided upon it. Evolutionists can be said to "triangulate" an ancestor by comparing two or more of its surviving descendants.

In today's society we have much more technology to research then we did when the bible was written and therefore shows that an evolutionist will have a better chance (and have already) in showing the history of our past.

question for MS, with all the information, data and facts provided here regarding evolution, do you still stand that evolution did/did not exist?

No way you just asked that...

Go back a few threads and I believe it was already answered. It's because we branched off and evolved differently and at different rates.

Domestic cats and lions share a common ancestor. How come a lion can eat you and a domestic cat cannot?

Is she for real? Or is this the worse case of sarcasm ever? We don't share any common traits? Are you blind? Have you ever seen a chimp... or any primate for that matter? As far as us both having the exact same traits... that's why it's called EVOLUTION! Because we've adapted to become something different. If we had ALL the same traits as the chimp... we'd BE A CHIMP!

Are you twisting words on purpose, for fun or out of habit.

How am I suppose to make sense of your reply to me 'Eljay', with your comment

'... because I know I'm not amongst a small elite group who thinks the bible is not evolving...'

I know the first part '... amongst a small elite group...' is coherent with my previous post to which you are replying, but where does the

'... who think THE BIBLE IS EVOLVING???...' come from???

A small elite group founding their faith in a '... bible inerrancy belief...' MUTATES into '...you believing the bible is evolving...'!!!

That's like faith mutating into 'bible inerrancy', mutating into creationism, mutating into Intelligent Design, and getting gruesomely declared 'unscientific', 'unsconstitutional' and a simple matter of faith and belief!!! Back to square one.

I this thread, on this topic, you are invited to address how FAITH mutates into FACT, because you keep making that claim, and yet you never demonstrate how that formidable and incomprehensible feat is achieved.

That is where the debate is at.

None of the creationist, fundamentalist, or other apologetist of the 'expert' kind, have succeeded yet in addressing this FAITH mutating into FACT mystery in the public arena where FACTS, judicial or scientific get to be debated and judged.

So for now, from the scientific and judicial perspectives, the premise you promote as FACT, is but a MYSTERY in reality, or if you wish to make it yours, legitimate material for anyone's personal FAITH!!!

I would appreciate, if you could fond in you to respect and debate the topic of this thread.

With a bit of rigour and mental discipline, it could be a respectful and interesting debate.

It’s absurd to say you accept microevolution and not macro. Your god can’t allow for adaptation within one of his creations but not allow for continued adaptation over a long period of time. Besides ANY evolution should be off limits to you because you believe that your god is omnipotent so why would he have created fully formed creatures that weren’t already perfectly designed from the get go? Think.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1985/who-wrote-the-bible-part-1

Here is an interesting article on who wrote the bible.

The evolution of the bible has been ongoing throughout history. It has been made to fit a certain agenda. It would probably not be very recognizable in it's original state, ya think?

No, you can't, because time and time again, ID has been scientifically disproven, and also legally proven to be nothing more than an attempt at getting religion into the public school systems.

Convenient way to explain the atrocities. Convenient also if we are to accept his own commands to kill as an act we wouldn't understand. Seems to me I 'can' understand that asking someone to kill their son is bizarre and kinda sick to ask of someone that would have done it by blind faith alone. I would dislike this god, as well as have little respect for a guy that would kill his son for his god...

Can you imagine someone telling a judge he killed his son because his god asked him to. The guy would be in prison or in a straight jacket.

so thou shall not murder is the correct term. This means thou can kill if have to or confronted with no other options when defending oneself. Is this correct?

You have yet to even address that question on the atheists thread about what it means to be a "true Christian." I listed over 29 different definitions taken from the bible. There is clearly no consensus even amongst early Christians.