Spirituality? What does a spiritual person mean to you? I am spiritual but do not have a religion to govern it. I do not believe in a god as religions define it. So to each of us is spirituality a different definition?

I can only speak for myself as to what i see it as being.It is the realization that thier is a creator who links his mind to yours.Now this is spirit and the closer I come to this spirit. The more knowledge i am able to recieve.....Blessings...Miles

By this definition, you can "feel" some sort of spiritual, but with no religion, you cannot define what that feeling of being spiritual is. It is an ethereal "feeling." It may make you feel good about yourself to say it. It may legitimatize your feelings about yourself and other ideas you have, but is is just your feelings. It really is meaningless beyond that.

So, by being spiritual and not religious, there really are no rules. There are no definitions. And, in fact there really is no spirituality.

If there is such a thing as spiritual, there must be a spirit. If there is a spirit then it must be able to be defined.

Further, just think. We all would like to find someone who has similar views to our own. We need that. However, once you find someone with similar views, you have defined something you both agree upon, and then you have a rule. You created your self a religion.

What a funny game we humans play with ourself.

Art

Hi Dragoness.

Interesting topic, to be sure.

I believe that we are all spiritual.
I believe we are a three piece construction.
Body, soul, and spirit.
These three work in concert to provide the essence of our total being and communicate interdependently to sustain our being.

The spiritual aspect is the most difficult to sequester and define, but the most inspirational aspect of our being, IMO.

Finding the congruence is the challenge.

I have found that congruence in Christ.

The Holy Spirit has made it clear to me where the difference between my soul and spirit is and that knowledge and experience makes my life as full as it has ever been and helped me immensely to know myself better.

Actually, I would disagree with this statement. Here is why.

Both Miles and Art have agreed, as do I, that relating to the word spiritual must include some referenc to a 'spirit' nature. Whether that nature is external or internal or in whole that which is part of all that exists in both the seen/perceived and unseen world.

The above quote would demand that any spirituality requires rules, guidelines and definition. But such things may be, only, the creation of man. So one can be spiritual, open to many ideas and realms of possibility, without being required to conform to the limitations that some humans feel must 'guide' their lives.

So being spiritual, has only one limitation that I can see, and that is to deny the possibility that life is no more than the coincidenc of the natural physical realm we live in. All other possibilities, however, are not denied to a person who is spiritual, but not guided by the limitations man has created for the spiritual.

I disagree with this and this is why. Logic is the mind and rules and guidelines are supposed to be logical. Logic is not governed by the spirit nor the spirit by logic. I refer to my spirit as my living energy. It just is. I was born, I live therefore I have it. It feels the freedom of life and the life force of other living things and it feeds me this life force. I do not believe that without rules the spirit does not do any good. Essentially it is the force of our life.

Man has become so hell bent on rules and guidelines and complexity that he cannot conceive of a simple uncomplicated life force in all living things.

Being spiritual and not having a religion to govern it is not a bad thing or "means nothing" as you implied. It is actually very freeing and unconstraining. I still live a very moral and ethical life. My logic governs that I live without harming any other life except for food. And this way of life feeds my spirit.

I felt a condescending tone to your post. I am here to tell you that I judge you not for your belief and I would hope you can get to a point of not judging me for mine. I will not enter your hell ever, so there is no fear here of that.

I wanted to know what each persons idea of spirituality is. I used my example to give one perspective only, not to be judged.

Oh and there are no hard feelings here either, I pointed out the judgement because it was what I saw. I consider you a living spirit just like me and I do not hold anything against you

This can become a very deep and complex subject. For interest's sake, however, and with the understanding that I come from a biblical view, I want to make a comment.

the Bible does explain that within the human brain God has placed a spirit element that gives mankind intellect far above the animals that sometimes have much larger brains. For example:

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

In other words, we can relate to and communicate with other human beings like we do because of this spirit we have in us. We know the things that take place in other people's minds, but we don't know what takes place in God's mind without His spirit.

By this human spirit that we have, we are actually spiritual beings. Some people like for example, the self realization fellowship and other Indian religions worship this spirit in us. They meditated and try to become at one with it. But it is not God.

When a person dies this spirit goes back to God who gave it.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Further, at death, this spirit is no longer active. There is no more conscience thought then.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

My point is that there are no real values that come from this spirit by itself. Even the human conscience that is associated with this spirit can be programed to believe evil is good.

Thus, having a spirit, feeling that spirit, and so on is of little real value by itself. It is just a spirit in a man. It gives us intellect, the ability to introspect and even question our own motives. In this we are in God's image. But, we are not in His image morally or ethically. Because as humans we can shape and mold our own conscience, the spirit itself is of no permanent lasting value, and ultimately can be and will be destroyed if we are wicked.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (spirit): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Hell is actually the lake of fire, the second death, not the ever burning hell of Dante's Inferno, and Catholic fame.)

I hope I can make this clear and understandable. We can feel spiritual because of this spirit in us. However, the intellect it provides does not automatically lead to any truth. That must come from an external spirit which is the Holy Spirit of God. Then we can know the things of God.

But, here is the rub. There is another spirit who is the prince of the power of the air. Because we have a spirit, we can tune into that spirit. We can be led like the ancient primitive Aztecs to tear out the hearts out of their victims in the belief in our spirituality. The American Indians believed the spirit was smoke and they lit tobacco. Hitler was a devout occultist and misled millions. Popes tortured and killed millions thinking they were spiritual.

So, the spirit is in us. It makes us spiritual beings, but without definitions, we can make up anything we want. To me this is a great danger. This is the choice Adam and Eve made. They decided for themselves what was right and wrong. Our modern day world is the result of that continuing mistake. The tragic misuse of the Bible, and the torture of others in the name of God it all comes from us choosing what is right from wrong, and not following the rules God said to follow.

Thus, people can claim to be spiritual, but they can justify stealing if they get hungry enough. They can claim to be spiritual and ignore the needs of the hungry. They can justify taking another person's mate if they don't think that they are being treated right. We can do all this stuff and believe that we are spiritual. We think we are actually doing good.



Yes, they can and they do exactly this. They can choose for themselves. It feels heady. If feels superior, but, the results are almost always negative whether the person is religious or not. Just look at our world. Just look at the choices we have made in our own personal world. What is humanity's score?



But, they are limited by other things. They are limited by the fact that they have human nature. We are selfish by nature and will always tend to act in our own self interest. We will excuse our selves and justify ourselves and think we are spiritual -- we are good when we do it.

We are limited by the fact that there is a spirit in this world that is evil and when we become angry, hostile and rage, we tune right into that spirit and become capable of horrible crimes.

We are limited in the extreme by believing this entire idea. As Bloom wrote in his famous book, The Closing of the American Mind, once we open our minds to think that all the other man made cultures, religions, and moral ethical standards are legitimate and of equal value, we automatically close our mind to ever finding what is true!

But, there is truth. There is a moral right and wrong, and on our own we cannot find it. On our own there is no certainty.

Give it some thought those who might read this post.

Art

Notice that you said that you did not judge, but you did judge. You condemned me to having a condescending attitude. I really didn't. I wrote with conviction, and I can understand that you could think I was condescending. I don't think for a minute that I am better than you. Quite the contrary. However, I do think that my conclusion is better than yours. It is not mine. It is Biblical.

See, I thought like you once. I have studied for decades, and now have a biblical view. The Bible does not support your view, and I support its view.

Consider how you spoke of logic and we don't need to follow external rules. Logic follows a certain form. In other words, If this is true, then something else can be deduced from that first truth.

So, where does the first truth come from? You seem to think that it is inherent in us. I claim that it is not in us. I claim that while there is a spirit in us, it is not the source of truth. It cannot be trusted to always be right. Thus, we cannot always trust ourselves.

Vandersloot? did what he thought was right. Hitler did what he thought was right.

We need external proven values to live by, not just ones we create because of the way we feel. The government realizes this and they set rules for society. Why people think that we don't need external rules is beyond me. Of course we do. We can trust our feelings, they are all over the place and change when our circumstance changes.

So, I hope you won't take any offense, but will rather see that there is some legitimate logic in this point of view.

Art

When a person is in harmony with the spirit they have no need for any rule book.

People who need a rule book cannot possibly be in harmony with the spirit. If they were, they wouldn’t need the rule book.

Art,

Let me ask you this,…

If it wasn’t against the rules to murder, pillage, rape, and commit infidel acts such as adultery would you then want to do those things?

If your answer is yes and the only thing that is preventing you from doing them is because they are against God’s rules, then I truly feel sorry for you.

On the other hand, if your answer is no you wouldn’t want to do those things anyway. Then I ask, “Why do you need a rule book?”

To me, spirituality is the connectivity we feel with all life, especially other human beings, when we believe that all life is sacred... Sacred meaning that we did not create it, that our "domination" over it, is meant to imply stewardship, not ownership... I may get thumped over the head now with Bibles, Korans, and boy scout manuals, but whatever... It's all I need to to know

Amazing... absolutely amazing...

Art,

Do you believe that 'God' is the only thing which can conceive through itself?

Talk about condescending. Go ahead and feel sorry for me, but, read the news my friend. Do people want to do these things? Most would say no, but without law, they do commit these things. In fact they do them with the law present.

Our nation was founded on Biblical principles as was Europe and in fact most of the world has some exposure to God's way. The further we get from the principles of the Bible the more brutal we become.

Go to primitive tribes in Africa who never heard of the bible. They kill pillage and eat one another. That is where we will head if we don't follow God's principles in the Bible.

In your question to me, you skipped a few things didn't you. You did not mention lying, or stealing. Haven't you ever committed one of these things? Or are you perfect because of the spirit that is in you? That spirit never wanted a woman who belonged to someone else?

You think that man is inherently good. I don't. I have looked in me, and I have acted in self interest and without love toward others. I admit it. But, you don't. That is interesting to me.

Art

Spirital, to who? Me being a Christian this is my relationship with God, through my spirit.

A non-chrsitan, this is your gut-instinct.

Dragoness asks,


Of course, I don't know what spirituality is, and I salute the integrity of the question.

When I say I don't 'know', I mean that from a rational or logical perspective.

From those perspectives, I can only refer to spirituality as a concept, a phenomenon with a particular 'finite' and 'personal' definition, which definition would either agree or disagree with other equally 'finite' and 'personal' definitions. Maybe those would equate to '... A spirit...' or 'THE spirit', as in a particular personnal definition of definition less 'SPIRIT'.

No 'finite' and 'personal' descriptions or definitions, could even start to access the possible 'essence' of spirituality, or more to the point IMO, the essence of 'spirit' in life.

A definition of anything, is by 'definition', 'finite' and 'personal'. Defining the 'infinite', doesn't escape this rule.

Definitions, and the meaning they are founded upon, are inseparable from human thinking, and in turn are inseparable from human SELF-awareness, inseparable from EGO,
'inseparable' from separation itself, and thereby, very much SEPARATE FROM SPIRIT!!!

While I don't know what 'spirit' is, intuition leads me to sense that 'spirit', has no connection, nor relation with that which is separate, ego-based, SELF-aware, and certainly has no relation with thinking generated human meaning.

From that perspective, what 'spirit' IS NOT, becomes clear.

One can then proceed to momentarily 'INTERRUPT' ego, SELF-aware obsessive focus, and personal definition and human meaning activities, which are all incompatible with spirit, such that, for a moment, the 'I's disappear, and 'spirit' (always and forever there) is impersonnally revealed to all.

Simply put, the more your try to explain 'spirit' (ego, meaning, separate), the further we all are from being present to it, or one with it.



Of course from the perspective I have suggested, there is no such phenomenon as a spiritual 'person', as if 'spirit' lived or belonged to one person, or group of persons in particular, distinct from the whole.

Again, religion, dogma, and all that which imposes any form of 'separate' dimensions, as all religions do, is as far removed from spirit as can be.

Of course, this only represents 'my' very personnal thoughts and meaning on the whole matter of 'spirit' (or spirituality).

:)

I saw a quote one time and it has stuck with me "Religion has been around for millions of years and what has it done for anyone but caused hate and death?"

I'm with you Dragoness, Spirituality is much more important that religion, religion is dogma, if dogma helps you to be spiritual then so be it, if it hinders you then by all means skip that part.

What I really hate are the people who are religious and not spiritual at all. I am Pagan, I do not hide that, my aunt is Baptist, (which for my own reasons detest with a horrible taste in my mouth) however my aunt is the most radiant, beautiful, kind, loving, selfless, incredible woman I know...and she is devout in her faith, which in part I believe is what makes her so beautiful.... so for her....it works, because she doesn't just walk the walk...she lives it everyday.

"Spiritual" means you want to believe in the supernatural, but you aren't brave enough to take a stand for your beliefs.

spider:

So what then does it mean to have a blind sheep mentality?

"Spiritual" means you are brave enough to take a stand for life, trust its spirit, and allow for a possible higher power, without the artificial and superfluous imposed definitions of religious dogma.

Now, you stated your opinion is better than mine because of a biblical study behind it, that is judging. Who is to say that your bible is right? You cannot even say that and know it for sure. You can read scripture that makes you believe you are right but it is still not necessarily right.

Spirit is not thought, understanding, conscience, logic. Spirit is the life force behind all of that. It is deeper and more basic that all that you listed. It is the core of us. You have taken into you the construct of the bibles teaching and that is fine but the core of us humans has nothing to do with a book or a god for that matter. It is more basic then all of those complexities. It is our living center. We are born so we have it. It just is. There is no governing of it. There is no guidelines for it. It is our living core. All living things have it.

Your bible has no control over the spirit. Your god has no control over the spirit. How can anything outside of the life itself govern the core of the life in one being? It cannot.

Now if you so choose to believe that another being controls the life force inside of you so be it. But it is a force of it's own. You were born and are alive today and it is there because of that reason only.

Now if the spirit and the soul are one the same applies for the soul. I relate the soul definition to religion and no religion governs me.

As for my morality. My morality comes from me choosing not hurt others. I choose not to be "bad" so therfore I am moral and ethical. Religion, although, it's members feel they are the leaders of morality are not. Morals are not exclusive to any church, religion, organization, etc.... Each person choses to be moral and ethical, or not. The monopoly of morality is not held by the religious right. As for rules, I think without a bible to govern them, people can do just fine. Laws of the land are not necessarily created due to a bible or a religion. People have brains and can see a thing that is not good without a bible to refer to. God does not equal good and ungod equal bad. God equals whatever man makes him and sometimes that can be bad. Many good deeds are done with no god in the background of the deed or the after participation. There is not monopoly here either.

I wanted to know what spirituality means to people, with or without religion. I believe you have answered your view. It is nothing without religion. I will respectfully disagree and allow you your opinion.