It would be so nice to be a moderator and be able to judge my own actions and other's actions and then throw my weight around and say "As a moderator myself...". That would be sweet.



What group of people is that LexFonteyne?



Oh, Christians? What Christians have condemned you to hell for having an opinion? Or is that hyperbole?

Either way, I'm made very uncomfortable in knowing that a moderator (who should be impartial) has obviously taken a side.

Spider, it would be great if you could quit twisting the facts for a few moments. YOU were the one who raised the issue of moderators in a prior post, to wit:

"Sometimes I suspect that the mods might regret creating this particular forum, due to the contentious nature of most of the discussions that happen here."

First of all, the moderators did not create the forum. Secondly, where have I thrown my weight around? Obviously, you don't want anyone expressing any opinion that doesn't jibe with yours. You've made that clear for months. Well, I'm sorry, but people are allowed to express other opinions, It's the whole point of discussion!

I understand that you like to take any dissenting opinions as attacks on yourself, when they're not. OK, that's your prerogative. Plenty of people have persecution complexes, that doesn't make them bad people.

But now, I'm throwing my weight around, simply because I disagree with you? Please! Do you understand what the function of a moderator is?

And keep in mind that my being a moderator does not preclude me from participating in forum discussions. As much as you might wish otherwise.



There are a handful who make a serious effort to cram their beliefs down the throats of others. I won't name names -- first, it's not my place to do so. Second, everybody already knows the answer to the question. Anyone who reads a random week's worth of posts in this forum will know, very quickly, who does this.




No, I have been told any number of times that I'm going to hell because I don't follow the Christian beliefs. Of course, since I don't believe in hell, the admonitions are wasted. As one of my friends likes to say, "It's YOUR hell, YOU rot in it!"



Being a moderator does not prevent me from having an opinion, or from saying so.

And, believe it or not, I am not one to let my beliefs interfere with my duties. If I were to see a rules violation here, I would take what I thought to be the appropriate action -- whether the violator be a Christian, an atheist, or anyone else.

It offends me that you think so little of my sense of responsibility that you could make insinuations that I would allow my own personal beliefs to color my judgments as a moderator. I'm sorry you're uncomfortable with the arrangement -- but do you honestly believe Mike and VC would have asked me to take on this role if they had any doubts about my ability to remain impartial?

Slander -- even by insinuation -- is derisive, Spider. Others have warned me about your methods, but it saddens me to see this sort of thing first hand.

My methods? Dude, you are the one who said "As a moderator myself..." You were throwing your weight around. I didn't know there were user moderators, I was speaking of Mike, etc. Didn't Mike and the other guys who run this site create the forum? I suspect that they did.

Were you the one who said "What you did is a lot worse that what I did..."... but wait, you have the position of power. Who is watching the watchmen? You get to decide if your comments are out of lines and if mine are out of line. Sweet gig.



Your posting in the forums doesn't bother me. If you look back, you will see that my point is that calling someone's relgious beliefs "fairytales" is deriding their beliefs. I don't think it's against the forum rules, but it's not conductive to polite conversations. Does your position as moderator require that you insult people's beliefs? Maybe it would be possible for you and others to lay off the Christians at bit. You can disagree all the time without insulting someone. If a woman asked if you were attracted to her, would you say "I'm sorry, but you aren't my type" or would you say "You are a fat whore with bad skin"? Do you see the difference? You can say "I don't believe in the Bible" or you can say "I'm not one of those fools who worship an old book". Which is more conductive of a polite conversation? Has it occured to you or any of the other people who freely insult Christians that sometimes we might get mad and strike back?

Seriously, you make it clear that you think Christians are trouble-causers and point out that you are a moderator, while you are talking to a Christian? How is that not throwing your weight around?

What about one's lack of religion? I don't appreciate it when people call me a demon, tell me I'm a moral failure, or say that I'm possessed by the spirit of the anti-Christ. Either way, calling a person's beliefs, or lack thereof outright stupid is still in bad taste. Live and let live.

With all due respect Spider, (and I seriously mean with respect)

It is totally wrong of you to claim that everyone who questions the divinity of Bible is “deriding” the beliefs of those who happen to believe in it.

This is utter nonsense, and totally irresponsible from any genuinely intelligent person who wishes to discussing philosophical and religious issues.

All you are doing is trying to create a wall that proclaims that questioning the Bible is off limits because it offends those who believe in it. That is utter nonsense!

People who genuinely believe that this historical doctrine is indeed a mythology created by mankind is a perfectly valid view.

To claim that they can’t voice their belief that these historical documents are nothing more than the writings of imaginative men is totally absurd and unwarranted in this day and age.

If you had your way no one would be permitted to question the Bible because it is supposedly divine. That just gives credence to your position and guards the mythology from being investigated for what other people believe it to be.

Come into the freedom of the 21st century!

Quit claiming personal insult every time someone suggests the Bible is a fairytale. Many people truly believe that this is the truth. I happen to be one of them as you well know. And I sincerely believe this as much as you believe that it is divine, possibly even more so!

This is the age of enlightenment and your suggestion that we all need to go back to the dark ages by claiming that the Bible is too sacred to be questioned is simply outdated. Those days are over.

Get with the program and quite whining personal insult all the time. You just sound like a sore loser who’s whining because people are questioning something you’d rather not see questioned.

We have freedom of speech today, and that’s the way things are now. Thank God!



Questioning the divinity of the Bible is not insulting Christians. Get over it already.

Anyone who is insulted by free inquiry has problems of their own!

If you find yourself getting emotionally upset by religious discussion then you have a responsibility to yourself to either get that under control, or move away from it and go do something else. Expecting the rest of the world to not question the Bible just so as not to burst your bubble is totally unrealistic.



No, I don’t see the difference. That’s hardly a fair analogy. All you are suggesting here is that people who don’t believe in the Bible should just say they don’t believe in it and leave it at that. All you are saying is that they shouldn’t point out all the flaws in it. In other words, you’re just suggesting that they should shut up!.

I’m sure you’d love that, but that’s not going to happen. Pointing out the absurdities is the heart of the matter.

So your analogy here fails.

Pointing out the absurdities in ancient doctrines is not hurling insults at the believers. You're wrong.

As a disclaimer, I will acknowledge that there are people who come onto the forums with the express purpose of inciting insult and emotional responses in people. But to claim that this is true of everyone who questions the divinity of the Bible is a stretch.

Using personal insult as a defense to claim that people shouldn’t suggest that the bible is not divine, or that they shouldn’t point out reasons why they believe it isn’t divine (including pointing out absurdities), is a truly bogus argument against intellectual inquiry.

They are the site owners and admins, not moderators. You used the word "moderators" before I did. It's not my fault if you don't have the terminology down.



What power are you talking about? My job is to make sure that there are no rules violations in the forums. If my comments are out of line, you can report them just the same as you can report anyone else's. And if I act on yours (which I never have, by the way -- I frequently find you abrasive, but that is a whole different thing from being abusive), my actions would be up for review.

There is a whole system in place to monitor moderator actions -- if I start "picking on" you, it will be obvious, and I will be called upon to account for my actions. In some ways, you're better off having a dispute with a moderator, because their actions, their decisions, are under much closer scrutiny than those of non-moderators.



I've already addressed that. Let's try again -- that's my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't have to like it. I really don't care one way or the other. I don't think it's derisive, and it doesn't violate site rules because it is not any sort of attack on any person. There is a book that I don't believe in. Therefore, to me, it has the equivalent standing of a book of fairy tales. Again, my opinion. I could be wrong. If that's the case, why not address that issue, rather than crawl back into the "deriding" shell? There's a difference between presenting an opposing opinion, and "deriding."



I'm really hoping that was a rhetorical question.



Who have I insulted? Is a book a "who"? I don't think I even insulted the book. It's not a bad book, really. Some of the philosophy is wonderful, some of the writing is excellent. I just don't happen to believe it's factual.

If I referred to a John Updike book as a fairy tale, would that be an insult? Or would you consider that assessment to be OK because Updike writes fiction? Because to me, the Bible is no more real than John Updike's "Rabbit" novels. So I shouldn't be allowed to say that, because one person, hunting desperately for something to be offended by, chooses to latch onto my OPINION, and call it "deriding"?

As far as laying off Christians -- I don't think they are entitled to any special "dispensation."



Disingenuous. First, where have I ever referred to anyone as a "fool"? You made that up.

Second, your analogy is misguided. You're comparing an immediate, contemporary conversation with a hypothetical person (in which the topic would necessarily incorporate referring to SPECIFIC CHARACTERISTICS about that person), to an opinion about a book. Again, a book is not a person. There is a HUGE difference between saying "You yourself are fat and smelly" and "I don't believe this here book."



Well, I've read enough posts here to have seen how THAT works. And I think, as a general rule, you have it backwards.

I was offering examples. I didn't imply that you had ever used that word, did I?

Calling someones beliefs "faerytales" implies what? What does that say about someone who hold those beliefs? Who believes in faerytales?

LexFonteyne and Abracadabra,

You guys are so rediculous, you should be ashamed of yourselves. You can disagree with someones beliefs without belittling those beliefs. You both know this, but Abra claims I'm saying that nobody should disagree with Christians and Lex claims that what he said isn't offensive. Even a child would know you are both wrong. Disagree with the Bible all you want, I expect that. But calling anothers beliefs "faerytales" and so much other terms that have been used to describe Christianity are simply baiting and trolling. If you can't discuss a subject and disagree with someone without insulting their beliefs, then you have serious issues. If you take an example someone gives and claim it is a personal insult, you are looking to be offended.

By calling someones beliefs "faerytales", you are insulting their intelligence and maturity.



I AGREE. THAT'S MY POINT! Are you agreeing with me? That you can say you don't accept the Bible without being insulting? Why don't you try it, you might find that Christians react differently when you aren't calling them unintelligent and/or children.

sigh. I'm going to say this again.

DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE ALL YOU WANT
DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE ALL YOU WANT
DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE ALL YOU WANT
DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE ALL YOU WANT
DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE ALL YOU WANT
DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE ALL YOU WANT
DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE ALL YOU WANT

You can say "I am not a Christian" without saying "I don't worship a corpse on a stick". Get it? You can disagree without being offensive. It's humanly possible.

Yes, it was implicit in the wording. You wrote: "You can say "I don't believe in the Bible" or you can say "I'm not one of those fools who worship an old book". I HAVE said "I don't believe in the Bible." Your phraseology implies that you were referring to something I actually said. The statement makes no sense if one half is about something I said and the other half isn't -- there's no rational basis for making the comparison if that's the case.



That I don't share those beliefs. Period. How is this difficult to comprehend?



Asked and answered. That they don't share my beliefs. Period.



I don't. I won't attempt to speak for anyone else.



But even when we do, you insist on seeing it as being "deriding." That's the choice you make, though.
You see ANY disagreement as "belittling." I think that's a stretch.



That's what it's looked like to me as long as I've been reading your posts. We're not allowed to disagree.



You can make the choice to be offended, if you wish. Or you can take off the martyr hat, and try to understand what I wrote as it was intended to be understood.



Somehow I doubt this. Children have better things to do than look for innocuous words that they can then claim to be "offended" by.



Yes, anyone who disagrees with you is now a troll. OK. I suppose tomorrow I will be a terrorist!



Would you like to meet my kettle? You don't permit ANY disagreement, no matter how minor or harmless, without crying "deriding!" "Issues"? I consider censorship pretty serious. Maybe you should start your own Christian-only site; then you can regulate all the forum content as much as you want.



If you take a harmless comment about someone not believing in the validity of a book, and use it to cry "deriding!" when it's merely one person's opinion, you are looking to be offended.

And, as I addressed earlier, your "example" was either an attempt to claim I said something I never said, or just remarkably poorly constructed. Makes no difference to me either way.

And this isn’t a personal insult?

This is the most arrogant haughty statement I can imagine.

You are basically suggesting that our words are so immature in invalid that even a child can see that we are wrong.

Spider, it is these kinds of snide personal insults that you sneer at people all the time.

There was nothing about religion in your statement at all. You’re just clearly deriding us with a direct personal insult.

This is the kind of deriding crap that you pull constantly and it is indeed personal and insulting!. Not to mention being totally bogus.

Everything I stated was perfectly sound.

Your claim that even a child could see that I am wrong is nothing more than a cheap insult.

It is not a personal insult to question the divinity of dogma. Period.

And that’s precisely what I had said!

Your snide insulting remark is totally out of place. And completely without merit.

You are the one who continually makes things personal.

And I think it's obvious to everyone because you seem to have a issues with everyone. But you are the only one who makes it personal????

Why would that be if the personal insults weren't originating from you to begin with????

Nothing I've said in my posts here were personal insults toward you, yet you insult me by saying that my reasoning is so empty that even a child can see through it???

If that's not a personal insult I don't know what is!



I seldom get emotional, but I must admit that your snide remarks and constant claim that you are the one being personally derided by everyone is really getting under my skin.

From my point of view you are the one who is always bashing people on a personal level.

That is a complete lie. Mike can ban me, but LexFonteyne is a liar. I have NEVER tried to stop someone from disagreeing with me. I have suggested that it can be done without being offensive or insulting on many occations.



Do you assume that I follow you around reading all of your posts? It was an example. A nice way to disagree and a rude/offensive way to disagree. AN EXAMPLE. EXAMPLE.

It's a comment on the quality of your and Lex's arguments.

In all honestly Spider, in all my time on this forum no one has ever insulted me more often than you have!

That may be true, but I didn't insult anyone in this thread. I commented on the quality of your and Lex's commentary on my comment. There is a nice way to disagree and a mean way, my point and my ONLY POINT was that it would be nice if everyone would try to disagree in a nice way.

You pass off a direct insult that easily?

Yet if someone comment on the quality of a book you call personal foul?

Get real.

You know what, I'll report the thread myself. If the Admins think that i was insulting either you or lex, I will ask them to ban me permanently.

Here is the email I have sent to the Admins.

The single most hypocritical -- and most pathetic -- post I have seen in my year+ here.

And that's saying something!

Did you even read what you wrote? A personal attack on me -- for stating an OPINION!! -- and then you have the nerve to say "I have suggested that it can be done without being offensive or insulting."

Do you even understand the meanings of the words "offensive" and "insulting"?

Like I said before, disingenuous!

You're amazing. I'm sorry for you, Spider. I don't know what else to say. But now we know where the real attacks come from!