I'm afraid that I read it over many times. I do not see the answer to the basic question. If the powers of this world changed the calender so that Wed was now the 1st day of the week when would YOU celebrate the Sabbath?

Is this that hard to answer?

R-bill this is to you-

I'm afraid that I read it over many times. I do not see the answer to the basic question. If the powers of this world changed the calender so that Wed was now the 1st day of the week when would YOU celebrate the Sabbath?

You seem to think that it is wrong to be Jealous. The covenant with God was a marriage agreement. When the people served other Gods it was spiritual adultery and God was Jealous. Would not you be jealous if your wife went after other men? That is not wrong. It is admirable.



You think He is egotistical, but God is actually understated. He never brags. He does not show off. God simply says what really is. He is the Almighty one. He is holy, and righteous. He decides what is right and wrong. He has the power and the right. That is not egotistical when in fact it is true.

What is interesting to me, is the incredible irony of your statements. You say God is egotistical, but it is you who are.
You think your righteousnesses exceeds His, and you tout it. You think you are superior to the God of the Bible. Like God says, where were you when all this was created? You were not on the board of directors. You did not help make any of the decisions about how long a blade of grass was to be. You have to forgive me, but from my perspective you talk big, but you have no power. You can't change anything about the life He created. It is so silly to hear you criticize God.



Again, you really don't understand the scriptures when you say something like this. The god you speak of is the devil. He is the one that controls the world you and I live in today. It is by our choice. The true God will come, take over the earth and heal the sickness, eliminate war, change the nature of animals so they don't harm people, bring truth and prosperity to humanity. He is not playing. He is simply letting mankind go his own way and experience the consequences of it.

It is the devil who toys with man. He has influenced millions in this society, and you are one of his subjects. He has tricked you into thinking that you have control and are free because you have freedom of choice. But, look where our choices have led us. We have destroyed the environment, and brought nothing but war, famine and disease on mankind. It is all because we have been sold on this very lie that we know better than God.



But that is according to your standards. God punishes the wicked. I suppose you like so many others, would not. God has rules. But you might not like them. He destroyed people who were sacrificing their children in the fire. You think He should not do that. So what???

What does your opinion have to do with the truth? It is just your opinion. God's opinion carries the weight of Him being the creator and sustainer of life. You don't have to believe in Him, on Him, or obey Him, and He lets you live and sends rain on your land anyway.

I really don't see you doing better than Him. You can criticize, but what can you really do to better mankind? I know you do see yourself as better than He is, but you have been hurt by others in this life, but it is not because they followed God, but because they did not follow Him. Look. Lots of us think we are good and kind, and we don't see the bloody messes we leave behind us. You are no different than the rest of us, and certainly are in no position to judge the God of the Bible. You don't know what that book really says, you don't know God it speaks of, you are just angry. In your state, you may think you see straight, but you really are in no position to really judge it.

But, maybe I am wrong. Perhaps you have perfect knowledge and judgment and have decided what you have, knowing all the facts. Fine, make your judgment, but again, can't you see the irony of all this. You are posting about the Sabbath, a subject you know nothing about. Why is it the seventh day? What is its purpose? What does it picture symbolically? You get my point? You don't know any of this. Why post? Is it just because you are mad that life is not how it should be? It is the way it is because we reject God, not because we accept Him. Think! You know that the religious people, the professing Christians, are not following the God of the Bible. Don't judge Him by them.

Art

I have no idea why this is of any value to you. Perhaps I will see it after I answer. The answer is that I will stick with the 7th day. So, if the the powers that be order us to keep the first day, I will keep the 7th day. If they change the calendar so that Wednesday is the first day of the week, I will observe Tuesday as the true Sabbath.

If they threaten to kill, torture, force us to keep their day, I would count it an honor to be joined in suffering with those before me who were loyal to God's commandments.

What about you? Is there anything you would die for?

Art

To me, most churches cannot be trusted. Even if they start off well, they end up protecting themselves and their purpose eventually becomes reversed. Instead of the church existing to serve God and His people, they end up serving themselves.

But it is not hard to tell who they serve. If they keep christmas, they serve the god Saturn, and Mithra. It is their holiday.

If you celebrate Easter, you serve Ishtar goddess of fertility don't you?

If you keep halloween, you serve Samhain.

If you teach and believe that the commandments are done away, you serve the gods of the Mystery religions--or perhaps just yourself.

If you keep the Sabbath, God's ten commandments, and His holy days, you serve Him.

Doesn't that make sense?

Art

Why don't you simply make the decision that there is no alternative? You don't say that I like to eat, but sometimes it is difficult. You have no alternative. You must eat. The truth is that we must obey God.

Why say it is difficult to keep the Sabbath. It is easy to do. Sometimes it is hard to face employers, but then if we can't face them, how will we face our executioner some day?

Are we playing at being religious? Or are we serious about God?

I want to remind you of something. Why do you think the heroes of faith were willing to die for their belief? Do you think it was simply because they were good? I don't. God says this:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Eternal life is a free gift to us. However, we are rewarded according to our works. Do you think you can ever imagine the enormity of the reward God offers us?

The disciples fled, and even denied Christ until after they saw Him in the resurrection and He taught them things pertaining to the kingdom. They saw what they will be like in the resurrection. They came to understand the truth about what they were to inherit in the Kingdom to come. It changed them. They did not care if they were tortured or died.

Give it some thought my friend. Just say no. Tell em no! I can't work that day. Then, work every day that you do work for Christ and not for them.

Art

Thank you very much that is very clear to me







I would die before I killed another.

I was hoping with all my being that you would tell me why it would matter to you. I just wondered and wondered and wondered. So, I have all kinds of scenarios in my mind, and I question if I even came close to the truth. So, of course you would have to tell me the truth, but I am sincerely interested in you telling me your honest and true reason for wanting to know.

I also would like your answer to my question, "is there anything you would give your life for?

By the way, if you post it too me personally, I promise you before all the forum members that I will not ever ever ever publish your answer here or anywhere. I will thank you for it on this thread, and not say one single word more about the subject.

To me, it is only fair you answer, because I did answer you.

What do you think?

Art

"

Well I rest every Sunday but church going is not my thing.I do pray,read the bible now and again,and talk to God daily.I believe in Jesus and hope to make Heavens list but if I don't I have only myself to blame..

I already gave the answer on the die thing It is in the same window as this one I said I would die before I killed another.


The only reason I wanted to know was to see if the Sabath for both you and Miles was based on the actual calander that was in effect during biblic times. Or if you just base it off of what ever calander "man" makes (which you both do)then it is obviously simple to decide the 7th day.
If you would have taken into account the calender at the time of Moses I think it would have been interesting to do some research on that calender. It also got me thinking that they may have not used a Jewish calender because they had just escaped Egypt. I am sure both the Jewish and Egyptian calenders of that time are based on the cycles of the moon but it would be interesting to compare them to our modern calender.
If you compared one to the other I get the feeling that there would be very few sabbath days that lined up between the two.

when they had the 1st passover on the 14th day of the 1st month the calender was in effect before they left. But it started at the beginning the 1stday then Yahweh rested the 7th day and blessed it and made it Holy. A sign for all generation between him and his children. Yahshu
ua's sign he was the Messiah was the sign of Jonah. That he would be in the earth 3days and 3 nights. Yahweh's sign to us is the sabbath of rest. So who is this guy that was in the grave for 24 to 30 hours? You know good friday at evening untill the end of the sabbath. That sign is not the sign of Yahshua and i am anti to whoever he is..Blessings...Miles

I would like to know where this oracle of the Jews is. It is true the Jews were seperated who refused Messiah and the Sabbath has been something they hold in very high respect. But so many people speak of the Jews when this is not true. Thier were 12 tribes and really ended up with 13 just like thier ended up 13 apostles which was prophesied. If people knew the law and the prophets they would realize that Paul and Barnabas were prophesied that the 2 of them would go to the gentiles hundreds of years earlier. But the law is no good huh? But i see all the tribes not just the jews. Where is this at? Blessings..Miles

Why not rest on the Sabbath, and thus obey God's commandment? There is an interesting point that you may want to know. It is this. If we want to understand the Bible, we need to do what it says. Thus, in the N.T. Christ says to continue in His word (continue doing it) and you will know the truth. He also states that whoever will do His will, they will know of the doctrine. Finally, the psalmist writes:


Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

So, if you begin to keep the Sabbath, your understanding of the Bible will grow enormously.

Why not give it three months and see?

Art

Yes, we all agree. All have fallen short of the glory of God. However, what are you really saying? By this statement are you saying that because we fall short of God's glory, we should not strive to keep His commandments?

This is the main argument of many Protestants. They say we can't keep the commandments perfectly, like God, therefore, there is no need for us to try.

On another level, are you sure that you understand self righteousness? It is not self righteousness to boldly state what God says. It is not self righteousness to defend the truth that is written in the Bible.

Most people do not understand what righteousness is. It is keeping the commandments:

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

When any of us choose to do something other than what God commands, then it is us deciding for our self what is righteous. Thus, it is doing something other than what God said to do that is self righteousness.

Many people make this mistake. They think that the Pharisees kept God's law too strictly. This is not the case. The truth is they were self righteous. They put their own tradition before God's commandment, and that is what is self righteous--deciding for the self what is right.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Worship on Sunday is a tradition of man. Worship on Sabbath is the commandment of God.

Self righteousness is keeping Sunday, and the scriptures say that this kind of worship is in vain. God says to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. That is not vain.

On another level, do you see how being self righteous breaks the other commandments too? It puts us before the true God. We make ourselves the idol, and we take God's name in vain, if we call ourselves Christians and don't do what He said. The wages of sin is death, and so by making up our own religion, we sin, and thus commit murder. We dishonor our spiritual parent God the Father, and we steal from Him what is His, and we participate in a lie. We covet what does not belong to us by worshiping contrary to God's commandments.

Some will be noble. They will go further than to get angry and name call. They will think about the point, not the author.

Art

I see that now. I am so stupid sometimes. I thought it was at the bottom and was like a quote that lots of people put at the bottom of all their posts. I apologize.



I was completely wrong on every single scenario I imagined about why you asked. I never would have guessed that you still did not understood my comment or that of Miles. He and I both explained to you that the calendar makes absolutely no difference when it comes to the weekly cycle. You can drop the term calendar from any conversations about the Sabbath. It has no bearing. But, you don't seem to believe us, and you don't do the research to find out the truth about calendars and the weekly cycle.



I studied calendar issues for two years, and wrote a small 60 page book on the subject. I do know about the calendar issues.



God's original calendar was 360 days. There were 12 months of exactly 30 days each. We can see this from the account in Noah's time when 5 months were 150 days long. We also see that God's prophetic calendar uses 360, thus, times time and a half , three and 1/2 years, and 42 months all have exactly 1260 days.

Something happened to the earth, perhaps during the flood, or the time the sun went backward, or the long day. Somewhere the axis of the earth has been changed.

Thus, at the time of the Exodus, God gave Moses the Caananite calendar for the purpose of keeping the annual holy days.

Exo 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

Thus, Moses was to use a month that already was in existence. Further, the Bible uses the term Abib, the term for the first month in the Caananite calendar, for the first month. Later, when the Jews came out of Babylon, they used the Babylonian calendar, and the term changes to Nisan.

Both of these calendars were luni-solar, taking both moon and sun into account--reconciling the differences. The modern Jewish calendar is far more sophisticated than either of these, however. It is a calculated calendar and was published by Hillel II in the mid 500's.

Hillel's calendar is the one the Jews use today. It is for the purpose of observing the annual holy days, and not the weekly Sabbath. The two are not connected in any way.



You must have said this three times and never understood what our answer was. It is just your feeling that the Sabbaths would not line up. They do line up, and are in NO WAY CONNECTED TO THE CALENDAR. The calendar can change from Roman, to Greek, to Jewish, and the Sabbath never changes.

As an aside, this is only true because the Romans set their weekly cycle to be 7 instead of what had previously been 5. Further, I would like to speculate on this.

The Romans hated the Jews, yet they adopted the Jews seven day week, and that week has continued to this very day. Check your calendar. It is Roman, but still has a 7 day weekly cycle. What is interesting to me, is that I think God intervened to cause them to change to the 7 day weekly cycle that the Jewish people had, even though the Romans hated the Jews. This prevented the problem you think exists, and it made possible the keeping of God's Sabbath throughout the empire that existed then, and western civilization that was yet to come.

I hope you will trust me on this, or do the research yourself so that you understand what you are talking about.

Thanks,

Art

Yes, this has always been a ploy of those who keep Sunday. They say the Sabbath is of the Jews. By this, they misdirect people.

The Sabbath is from God. He created it, and He commanded its observance. He gave the Sabbath to all 12 tribes of Israel. Because the ten northern tribes changed the Sabbath and Holy days, God sent them into captivity. They have become lost to history, but not to the church Jam 1:1. The Jews were also scattered in 70 Ad, but because they retained the Sabbath, Secular history knows where they are today.

Why is this important? The reason is that the Sabbath is the sign. A sign points to something or identifies it. The Sabbath identifies God's people. Thus, the Sabbath identifies the Jewish people to this very day, and consequently, people think that the Sabbath belongs to them.

In one sense, it does belong to them, but it belongs to Benjamin and Levi too, but they are called Jews by those who do not understand about the different tribes.

The Sabbath now belongs to all those who will choose to obey God because there is neither Jew nor Gentiles when it comes to spiritual Israel, the church.

One day the Sabbath will belong to all mankind, even those on this forum. Speaking of the millennium, God says:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

We will be there together one day. I recommend getting a head start, and keeping it now.

Art

I read this whole post with much interest. I trust that what you tell me here is what you have researched. The place we are obviously going to part ways on is that I do not believe that God changes the length of days or interferes in the earth in any way. So the amount of a year in the time of Moses would be the same as it is today. That is where I will hold onto the idea that the actual way the days fall in a lunar calender at the time of Moses as compared to our Solar based calender today is probably off by quite a few days. I will admit however this is only my speculation and I have not done the math to say one way or the other.
I understand your point of view is that God put down a good calender from the start. You also believe no matter the calender the 7th day is the 7th day.

peace

Hi Miles,

I have a question about the 13. If there were twelve, and Judas was disqualified, then Matthias was chosen and recorded in the Bible, doesn't that make the 12 again? And, if you add Paul and Barnabas, then there are 14.

I have always wondered if Matthias was man's choice, and Paul was God's choice. I see that as a possibility, but the thirteen concept is interesting, but I think flawed.

For example, numerically, 12 is the number of God's government. Thus, the tribe of Levi was not included in the list of the tribes. It was always considered out side the list, and mentioned separately. Thus there were always 12. There were only 12 disciples who were made apostles by Christ and who were called the twelve during his ministry. He said that in the kingdom, the twelve would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Further, when it comes to that which is permanent, and eternal, there are 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem, and each has the name of one of the apostles. Further, there are 12 gates that have the names of the tribes. There are only 12 thousand from each of the tribes of spiritual Israel in Rev 7, and Levi is one of them because they are all now kings and priests.

So, you get my point. Scripturally, there are twelve, and historically there were thirteen but Levi was not counted then, and only twelve are numbered on the headquarters building for the entire universe.

What do you think?

Art