local to higher ... I believe if old or new ... they should talk about the issue that are happening in their states ... and what comes out of Washington ...


They should offer up their accomplishment and what their plans are for the future as to what they may want from their state ... or from their government ... lots of dreams have been taken away from the american voters ... many do not trust the system, anymore ...

to want to vote ... they need to stop all of the bashing of each other and name calling ... and get to the points of... their ideas they want to bring to the table...

I know how hard that is for some because they have made their own mistakes ... and not seen on the level as before ... stick with the issues... stay on the subjects ...
know flip flopping like a fish out of water ... Voters want the truth ... of what their plains are ... and I have seen in the past what some have started or want and they are good Ideas... and they need to work together ... to become knowledgeable for the younger

voters to ... and that is what some are doing ... that is a leader ... know promises...

they all get broken anyway ... just say what you want for the people ... let them understand what they are really voting for in you ...

Well we all know politicians are fakes and liars.
When they are canvassing for our votes they promise the earth. and once they are in it's the complete opposite, they don't want to know.
I do not vote at all as it is a complete waste of time!!
I am from UK and you only have to look at Brexit, where the UK leaves EU, to see what a complete and utter shamble the Prime Minister and the MPs in Parliament have made of it. I live in Spain now and I have no intention of going back to the UK to live!!

Understand... seems like it is her mission ... to separate ... with this issue ...

I don't live there of course ... but I do know some ... do not want this and think...
it is a mistake ... honestly I believe them more ... that's been my take on it ...



Well we all know politicians are fakes and liars.
That is surely what it seems like ...

Well when David Cameron was the Prime Minister, it was his idea to put it the people do you want to stay in the EU or leave?? So they had a referendum and it was thought the resulting vote would be to stay in the EU. But no, it was the opposite result to everyone's shock and horror. David Cameron resigned as Prime Minister and ran away and has not been seen since!!! He took the chicken way out!! When the going gets tough the tough gets going, as the song says.

2020 will be the time to

I empathize really. I think the 'public' make claims of what they want on the one hand, but are not consistent in their voting. With one candidate they will say they want more experience, and another they will say that less political experience makes them a better candidate. With one candidate they will say they are embarassing, and with another they will just chalk it up as being not too PC.

I think government is a reflection of the country and its citizens, here in America. I think we tend to want to act and believe as if we are more virtuous than we are. And it is true that one has to get in these offices to start making change from the inside. they take their cues from what works in advertising and they follow it. getting in is first priority, because nothing happens without that step. Advertising sells in our culture with plenty of scandal, stereotyping, and simplistic story lines. and in this media age, that is also often what gets people elected, unfortunately. But once they are in, they cant mess up too badly if they want reelection.

this is only my perception over the years though.

They do what they've always done
They do what's best for the square mile, while trying to persuade you, that they're doing the best for you

Nice...,
Here's what another Lady like you has to say...




Game changers:

6. Use a public server for Emails;
Build it, then Tip off to Wiki Leaks
Erase Emails
Blame the Opposing candidate for collusion with foreign government

(Trump nearly lost on this point during debate;
He’s a steel and concrete guy; not tech savvy
Luckily he came up with a distraction: “Could be China”)


7. In case you lose, don’t quit
There is always Impeachment,
and if that doesn't work
There's always obstruction
and..,,
Tomorrow's another day

I view all this from my typical combination historian/service technician point of view.

I know that in long term service situations, just as in the paths of historic events and human behaviors, that nothing really bad happens out of the blue.

Yes, there has always been an element of at least showmanship, if not necessarily deception, involved with all attempts to politically lead. Even in the days of kings and emperors, power was built and maintained less by physical force, than by persuasions of various kinds.

I have seen lots of mechanical service situations, where an entire large system or collection of systems came to be in a constant state of disruption and collapse, entirely because for years before, person after person in a position to handle problems efficiently and effectively, elected to go for short cuts and short term advantages only. It was always made far worse, by those who came on the scene later, reacting with nothing but hand wringing and sarcastic observations of how "leadership is always corrupted by greed" or whatever.

The reasons we are in the mess we are now, are all in the far past, and have been made vastly worse over time, by the repetition of short term patch over short term patch, rather than any real effort being made to fundamentally fix anything.

In particular, when a large part of the leadership of a nation decides to ignore principles, and to make all decisions for the sake of short term gains, the overall nation will invariably be placed in a precarious and dangerous danger of complete collapse, over time.

The problem we have now, isn't just that some of our political leaders are selfish and personally corrupt. The problem we have, is that due to the conscious decision long ago, to set aside principles of decency, honesty, and above all, honor and integrity, in order to gain short term majority power in our legislatures, the entire fabric of those political parties and organizations converted themselves to consisting of a majority of people who don't even know what honor means.

As long as a majority of American voters continue to make choices based only on immediate perceived gratuities and emotional catering to prejudices and fears, the people who want to use us as a sludgy ocean of fools to sail their yachts of personal greed across, will continue to make sure we all stay in this mess.

Liars only succeed, when a majority of people choose to pretend they are not liars, for their own personal gain.

Unfortunately, we are under the impression a government is necessary.

Militia
Private Social Security Insurance
Health Professionals

Just Privatize governmental industry everyone is responsible for everyone working in tangent.

With out spending too much and handling things through cooperation everything would be much cheaper and it wouldn't be necessary for people to act indecent.

Unfortunately, cooperation and respect doesn't happen. If no one havs reason to desire anything what would be the reason for Ill will in.any shape or manner.

too easily repackaged as 'socialism'. Americans love our sense of 'better than' the next guy and having 'merit'.

Socialism is a form government. This is more like hunters and gathers.

One thing many forget to consider is the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Why tolerate it at all?
Nominate the best one for the "Job" and hold them responsible for doing their "Job".
Plus, if the one you elect is NOT doing their job, remove them and find someone that Will Do Their Job.

Translation:
Good people are not effective and it's not because evil is stronger..
Example in two parts:

The first part is simple.
Let's say you went to a school where the teachers insisted on values like honesty
and i went to a school where teachers turned a blind eye to cheating.

let's assume we work in the same organization
time comes I get promoted and the reason is obvious
Most likely, I've been informing the Boss the ideas you shared with me in good faith.

Unfortunately for the good guy (you) this is not obvious, cause you cannot believe 'J' would do these things - it was so programmed; and by the time you accept the obvious time has moved on.

Let's scale this up to a Nation
Nation has the Constitution okay; but the average Joe learns his values from religion, culture, community and Hollywood ...

Now when a Nation has a majority religion and several minorities
you guessed it.., Values are at variance
and J would try to seek a position of leverage - like media

In this flux of mixes; politicians who were not corrupt; are also now corrupted
depending on how effective J is with the levers.
J always provides a backdoor for the politician

And so system deteriorates

Remedy????



I don't know; but based on a few good friends in US
I formed the following opinion - feel free to correct

Americans gave a fair chance to Obama / Democrats
but felt their Country was just sitting; recovering from the 2008 okay
but still in 2015 (companies did well with off-shore labor)
(Refer to Old Kid's explanation on GDP)
and so was going nowhere; and got tired.


now Trump is, as someone said, dingbat and all; even evil and i will agree
but to combat a greater evil like deterioration ...

man never got a chance!!!
--xx--

In 2016 elections, I don't think it was immediate gratuities the American voters perceived - except for getting back their jobs

living in AMerica, I dont know if 'fair' chance is accurate. I believe it was more of the lesser of two evils, with McCain getting bad press for both being POW and choosing dingbat Palin over so many better qualified people. And in 2016, Ameicans were already getting their jobs back, dropping unemployment in half from nearly 10 percent in 2009, to 4.7 in 2016. LIving in AMerica, the thing that got Trump elected (besides help from the Russians) was common bigotry, fear tactics, and alot of 'truthful hyperbole', mixed in with alot of hatred against Hilary Clinton.

May be you are right on this..



But it seems democracies are going downhill; independent of who is President / PM
Igor’s analogy of 'systems that demand maintenance’ says it well: A fan makes noise, we ignore it, replace bearing or buy a new fan.

Democracies and their committees have the same attitude when a 1000 MW turbine rumbles; first ignore it...

as world power, it's high time US did a complete rethink on foreign policy which seems to Flip and Flop as presidents change.

for example crisis on the horizon: The Iran Sanction (turbine rumbles)



At present China and India are major importers of Iranian oil.
If we do not stop our imports by end-of-month, we could be hit by U.S. sanctions.

We don't have to go back in past for cause of sanctions; but here's an outline:
US did not act on Syria before Putin did;
ISIS was born in Iraq after the US troops left
Iran supported ISIS (no longer)
Iran could not control the ISIS which went from Iraq to Syria
Israel feels threatened by 'any' emerging nuclear power in middle east...
--xx--

Does US / Israel not know that all nations would have to depend on nuclear power plants for their future requirements?

--xx--
Moreover when previous president w/Europe signed a preliminary deal with Iran
Current president tears up deal (may be okay)
And applied Sanctions !!!

Applied Sanctions for 6 months or so; come May, and Iran will have zero imports
Example , 80 million people; more than UK's population & almost twice of Canada
will have to go without cereals.

Sanctions on Russia, Iran
it could be India tomorrow..

I don't know if this is a problem with Trump or the hawks in US;
or is this the world we all have to necessarily live in.

"negotiating with a baseball bat."

You have some things correct, and some that are off, and you appear to have some political...manipulations by certain other parties (not you) mixed in.

I don't know where you got the idea that the US "didn't act on Syria until after Putin did." Russia was the latecomer there,and was invited in by Syria's leader in large part to counteract the US. One of the many very disturbing things in America now, is that the Republican Party, purely for LOCAL advantage, has been falsely promoting the idea that Putin's Russia actually led the defeat of ISIS (so far as that has gone); that Russia handled Syria correctly, and that the US was wrong; that Iran should be treated as a magically evil place, not because it is, but because they want to say no to ANYTHING that a (coincidentally black?) Democratic President tried to do, regardless of how wise and forward-looking it was; and worse.

The Republicans initiated the huge Federal financial bailout of the rich back in 2008, and then as soon as they lost the election, they blamed the entire bailout on Obama. They promoted the idea that keeping interest rates low, and continuing to assist the economy from the Federal level (which again, they started) was a disaster, even as the economy recovered. They blocked every Democratic initiative to help the economy further which they could, while complaining that although the economy was recovering, that it wasn't recovering fast enough.

And what was their "solution," after they gained full control? Was it to rein in government intervention, and address the climbing deficit, which they had decried from 2008 to 2016? Nope. They reversed course 180 degrees, and declared the deficit meaningless, cut taxes ONLY on the top moneymakers, promising large wage increases (none occurred), a return of industrial investment here (very little occurred, none of which wasn't already in the works before 2016). Now the deficit is vastly worse than ever before and growing.

I'd like to add that your notion that we would nuclear power is false
The square mile likes oil
It does not like clean renewable energy
Big corporations are always like this
Example, the guy who invented a razor blade sharpener, that would make your razor last 6 times longer
Gillette freaked, bought the patent from him, and shelved it
The square mile, does not like solar power

This could be one of the sub-systems under the 'systems view' introduced by Igor.

Applying the machine analogy or ‘systems view’ on governments, quite new to me; while all along in engineering; never thought of looking at the social world as systems; it was always ‘lakes and clouds’; evaporation systems; Ha, ha.

While this thread is on ‘decay and corruption’; the systems view also clarifies what’s going around the world; why multiparty democracy, and chaos may be what we deserve in India; and how Communism helped China to emerge from the Japanese ravages of WWII; and some of the ashes that are deeper than poverty.
(thinking aloud)

Igor,
As far as the ‘manipulation’ goes; I saw it as a ‘gentle’ reminder not to involve or ‘collude’ in American politics. Fair enough, but..

But for the exceptional circumstances that we Indians face today.

In fact, I see World History…, repeated under Obama; and being repeated again under Trump the Great!

Following is for members who are interested beyond American shores:

Ancient History : Most Americans (and Europeans) know Roman History but it seems that the part that’s imprinted in their minds is not the history of Rome as a Republic ruled by a Senate; but the part after Caesar overthrew the Senate, the history of the Roman Empire. There was a Pompey then.

Now allow me to share how this ancient history raced through in different forms in the East. We may know it; but let’s view it as a complete train of events: Old India, Recent Syria and Now Iran.

Indian History: Why do you think a handful of British could take over and rule India for 200 years! It’s because the minority rulers, Muslims; misruled for over 500 years. 800 hundred years ago, India was like Europe; with many rulers and infighting. While Europe had Christianity as the common thread; India had Hinduism and Dharma / Karmas. It’s unnecessary to explain further except to say that the vast majority of Hindus did not convert even under the threat of the Sword and were willing to pay a levy to remain Hindu. Persia (Iran) had converted from being Zoroastrians. Indian temples were looted; then destroyed and mosques built with the same stones.

When the Portuguese, Dutch, French and the English came; there was a vast ready pool of willing men. Under Europeans, the taxations were high, farms were taxed in advance of crops, salt was taxed; but the European Laws did not discriminate between the Hindu and his Muslim neighbor. Rest we know.

History Repeats in Syria : A minority sect, Shias ruled the majority, the Sunnis. After WWII, for their cooperation, Brits gave away Arab lands to elite Arab families; yes, around the time when Arabia was not Saudi Arabia and Israel was not established.

2010 on wards the Arab Spring (Syria) gained momentum and Assad’s military bombed rebelling towns. US sent military aid; covert operation and just when Assad was willing to capitulate (2012); the Russian Air Force flew in. ISIS followed at ground level.

How do I know? I was then (2010-12) working on a Saudi power project about 500 hundred miles from the Syrian border; we were all tracking rebel movements; Assad’s counter attacks; US veto in the UN over any invasion of Syria and so on. Obama then declared no-fly zones (2013, I think). Russian and American planes flew, as close as eyeball (probably all of us have seen those pictures; in newspapers).

April 14, 2018 – First Direct Action : US, UK and France held a joint operation with some 100 missiles fired presumably at chemical weapons factories.
Too late – Syria was firmly in Assad’s / Russia’s hands. A million Syrians had migrated, first to Greece (whose bankruptcy was forgotten) then on wards to Merkel’s Europe.

American soldiers could not identify who the Syrian is and who the ISIS. Trump calls of the war; declares victory and hands over Syrian mop up operations to Turkey!!

Moral of Story All this because of one man’s indecisiveness. Moral: Impeach any President who accepts the Nobel Prize at the beginning of his presidency; a man who sells his Country for Judas coins.

Now Iran : That Obama and Europe wanted a course correction in the New Middle Eastern Order by wooing Iran – and after all that happened with Syria; I’m inclined to believe that this was the only option available. When a daughter has been raped, marry her to the rapist.

The world has seen the ‘Trump – N. Korea’ meet sabotaged; we have seen the Russian collusion charge merit-less and it seems the foreign minister of Iran used this tone when in a recent TV interview he said: “Trump does not want war. He wants to bring Iran to its knees; and that will never happen. The problem is there are vested interests that may lure Trump into war.”

Tomorrow (May 2nd on wards): if India obliges Trump; petrol prices which are at $4 per gallon would shoot up. If India is unwilling to oblige, as are Turkey and China; then it is likely that an American battleship may accidentally fire at an Indian tanker. Has happened before (USS Enterprise at an Indian Frigate during the Bangladesh war).

In India we have a saying that's caught on: "Damned if we do; damned if we don't."