addressing three issues

1. putting prisoners to work wouldn't require firing anyone,,,there are all types of open positions that people just don't WANT to do,,,,and if its a requirement while in prison, it saves the employer an actual 'wage'

2.I fully realize the hopelessness and lack of esteem many criminals learn happens before prison, which is why I believe its a great idea not to CONTINUE that self perpetuating condition during imprisonment,, being locked away from citizens mitigates enough, and keeps citizens safe,, it makes more sense to be doing something CONSTRUCTIVE during the time that criminals are locked up to discourage the recidivism once they are released...


3. Several things kids do would be crimes as adults,,

a. Throwing things about the house and the yard, writing on walls? Property crime (17% of prison population),,,

b. like when teens sneak beers and prescriptions from their parents , Drug crime(20.5 % of prison population) is basically people having for ingestion or selling/sharing something the law has determined they cant have

c. throwing tantrums , being vulgar, disrespectful to 'authority',,,, Public disorder (10% of prison population)


that's a full 47.5 percent who may be better served with productive 'correction' instead of strictly 'punishment'

http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004339

Did anyone except me, notice that none of the opening posts proposals have anything at all to do with Prison Reform?

Changing WHY people go to prison, has nothing to do with prison itself.

Again, I'm not arguing against anything you might have in mind for reform, but I think you need to be careful about statistics like these.

The crimes that people are officially convicted of, are not necessarily the real reason why they have been incarcerated. For example, if someone is convicted of "being disrespectful of authority," that can mean anything from that a prick of a uniformed officer decided to drag someone in for failing to kiss his toes, to someone who committed many acts of insanity and violence and threats, before finally doing something in the presence of officers (the disrespect) which they could firmly arrest and convict them on.

" a. Throwing things about the house and the yard, writing on walls? Property crime (17% of prison population),,, "

Describing it that way, makes it sound like an upset child of five, was thrown in the hoosgow for overturning his pudding dish, or getting carried away with a crayon. Again, the actual jailed person might have been, for example, tearing down his ex-girlfriends' house, with the clear intent to physically assault her, and was jailed NOMINALLY for "disturbing the peace," because that crime was the best they could do with what evidence was at hand, to lock the psycho up.

It's also always been true that some people really ARE jailed for petty reasons, political reasons, or just corrupt-cop reasons. But we have to be mindful, if we are going to resolve our problems, as to what each case is really about.

Statistics can be misleading. Hence the old saying about them.

I agree with all that

and all those exceptions would do better with true 'rehablitative' and productive imprisonment than being stripped of all dignity , and permanently shunned by society after being locked up , degraded and forgotten

Sticky subject that no one wants to really dip into because the ones who usually bring the topic up are not convicted felons and or have done "jail time".

Sticky subject that no one wants to really dip into because the ones who usually bring the topic up are not convicted felons and or have done "jail time".

Why should I care? I, and millions of people make the conscious decision to not break the law...and thus, dont incur any of the "issues" convicted felons have brought upon themselves.
I dont care that hardships, brought about by bad decisions, makes ones life harder. They knew the rules beforehand...just like I do.
Maybe the complainers should take a cue from the felons...though few...that stood up for their mistakes, realized any hardships they faced were a result of their own actions....and hunkered down and dug themselves out of their self-dug hole the right way.
I get it though....everybody is a "victim" these days....and standing around and plotting the "success" of the "down trodden" makes some feel all warm and fuzzy inside...and they can brag to their friends about how "compassionate" they are...good for them. I choose to pass though,

yep, whats that old saying "There's no such
thing as bad luck, just bad decisions.

Idk...never heard of it...never heard of "Theres no such thing as bad decisions, just bad luck" either.
I have heard..."Dont do the crime if you cant do the time" though....

This is a personal opinion and it is not even close to being factual. However, if you have anything that backs up this statement I would be happy to see it ;-)

Then you need to do your homework because retail and insurance loss prevention statistics do not prove out your opinion. What they do jives with mine because when inventory and sales records do not jive they generate loss prevention software that starts looking for repeat offenders that come in and shop for illegal resale of thousands of dollars of inventory and when the losses are high enough to justify prosecution costs they nail these "pinchers" and they usually roll on the stores that buy their inventory to get lesser pleas if they are even able to go up the supply chain. The majority of them are addicts. AND/Or they live in squatters dens where they have to pay protection. Not all are juveniles but many are from second and third generation failed families/gang bangers.



Again a personal opinion with no basis of factuality (is that even a word? lol)

Facuality not my word but again the facts are that many; upwards to 80% of these little darlings are long time frequent fliers of the social services systems from spending their toddler years in pre-k daycare, domestic violence shelters, foster care, group homes, psychiatric care, and alternative school, and sadly flunking out of "court ordered" mentorship programs including the military before they can make their first unit assignment. I know because for forty years I have been doing casework with these populations. At least 40-60% of them will refuse help unless they are sick/homeless or facing penitentiary time because they will brag that probation and or county jail is just "vacation" time. It is a joke to them.



you say it is a major burden for those living around it to have to smell it... Well, I am sorry but you have the right to live where ever you want, as does every other (unless restricted by the court for past offenses) citizen and this means your right does not trump their's.

Oh that is real rich of you. I rent or buy a property and when some stoner comes in under new quasi laws that will allow it only in poorer neighborhoods and turns where I live into and unbearable place to live where the property value turns to that of a dirty ashtray I am the one who is suppose to leave. The fact that the smell permeates my buildings, carpet, clothing, furnace filters and make it impossible for me to breath is my fault? Or the homeless or near homeless traffic, and crime, and chronic need for police presence that consistently surrounds pot dispensaries much like low rent bars and methadone clinics.

So if you find it intolerable, the burden is on you to find some place else to live; just as I do not have the right to expect the neighbors in my community to keep their kids on a leash (figuratively speaking, I do NOT believe in leashes for kids lol).

Actually we do have a right to expect parents to keep their kids under control. And if their stoner parents don't which the consistent facts I see in children who are neglected and are failing in school because they have such "free range" parents is that those parent do over consume and their kids are in fact consistently consuming. Just because you read some free newspaper print some slanted study does not bear out in actual demographics.


You also claim that if more adults use it, then more kids will use it. I strongly suggest you look at reports on how the legalization of marijuana is affecting Colorado (I will try and find a specific article I was reading the other day for you). You will find that the theory that it will increase in use with kids has been debunked.

Sorry I have lived in Kansas and Colorado and the use of pot, cocaine, and methamphetamine, OxyContin, even heroine is in epidemic proportions from the cities to the even small farming communities and has been for 35 years. Drug treatment facilities is an entire industry in the state. So before you make it sound like some paradise try raising kids there.

You also say you have yet to see a stoner who is a motivated or dependable employee. Again, I refer you to Colorado and their findings. Yes there are A FEW people who will overuse it. That is why you regulate it and treat it the same as tobacco and / or alcohol. But there will ALWAYS be those who abuse something (like the person who overindulges on chocolate. But hte simple HISTORY and facts will show you that motor vehicle accidents that involve drugs or alcohol have never been found to include those who are high on marijuana (or to be so limited as to be non existent).

That sure does not jive with the numbers coming out of Highway Safety Commission that now uses mandatory breathalyzer and blood tests to determine dui which is not drunk driving but driving under the influence= pot and other drugs not just alcohol.

Here is a link to who is REALLY in our prisons as of November of last year...
You will find y\that what you stated is very much wrong. And if you dig in a little bit further and look into what is listed under each type of crime (for example sex crimes) you will find many that should not even be there.

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp

I do not reference unknown sources but what I do know is what I read on victims statements and what I hear when I set as a Casa advocate listening to court hearings. And I know what I have seen with my own two eyes in the prisons when I am in them with victims trying to keep three strikers in instead of being pushed out under over crowding mandates made by people who do not have to live in the ghettos where these scum bags don't even attempt to work.

What you do not seem to get is you can make statistics say almost anything you want. What many of these stats never show is the pervasive criminal behavior that gets them in jail and what keeps them there often plea deals that do not come close to what some of them actually brag about doing.


In regards to having to serve your entire sentence, I agree completely. I also believe that you should not be able to plea bargain to a lighter offense. I also agree with work farms (watch for a related post regarding work farms for those behind on child support) for prisoners to grow their own food, etc. You are also right that it should not cost us more to incarcerate someone (outside of the costs of prosecuting them of course).

With that said though one thing you are very much dead wrong in believing (unless I misunderstand you which I don't think I do) is the idea that prisoners should basically be in an 3x5 cell with nothing to do other than work in the prison farms and that they should have no way to improve themselves while in prison. prison used only for punitive actions will do NOTHING except make the person a worse criminal when they get out because they will get out and have absolutely nothing to do in regards to gaining employment and making an honest life for themselves. They will have no skills (generally speaking) and be unable to get a job and will thus return to breaking the law and end up back in prison. Prison HAS, no NEEDS to be rehabilitative as well or we may as well just lock the person who robs a convenience store up for the rest of their life.

In reghards to school being mandatory it is mandatory in every single state, generally from age 5 through age 16 and all states have truancy laws (though they ARE unenforced in many places, I admit).




I do not disagree at all with any of this needing to be done, nor that it would help reduce those in prison. HOWEVER it will not stop the problem that is happening right now, which is that prisons are not government facilities any more. They are private businesses that DEPEND on more and more prisoners being locked up AND KEPT LOCKED UP (and yes htis has been PROVEN several times now).

Finally, I am sorry but we can not hold another COUNTRY liable for the actions of one or two of it's citizens. If we did then every time someone from Alaska committed a crime, say in Tennessee, then YOUR taxes should be increased to help pay for his detention in Tennessee.

In the end, our best option is rehabilitation for those who can be rehabilitated. For those who can not, and are too violent to release, I say create another Australia. Place it inside the daily patrol of the United States Navy; have it a complete no fly and no ship zone, anyone found in the skys or the seas is shot down without warning. The prisoners are escorted to the island via the Navy and left there to fend for themselves. The problem with that though is it is considered cruel and unusual punishment which is not constitutionally allowed :(

Before I weigh in I would have to know more facts and stat's broken down. Personally I think we have a society built on excuses.
If a person doesn't like the law change it don't break it.


I personally believe prisoners have it way easier than some people working two jobs to put food on the table for their children or a roof over their head and they are doing things the "right way " and some of their hard earned wages are going to support them. Not right to me.

throwing tantrums , being vulgar, disrespectful to 'authority',,,, Public disorder (10% of prison population)


?. from what I know, the above does not land a person in prison. Maybe a night in the local lock up but that's about it. You land in prison when you are sentenced long term and a vast majority of the time that is for a serious felony... not kid stuff.

And the vast majority of people in prison are repeat offenders. In my opinion, they are exactly where they belong.