I understand all you have said earlier and I don't find it annoying at all.

If it was a placebo effect, then

-Manufacturers like Reckeweg, Helios, Boiron or Bioforce etc. would not have survived ISO 9001 audits. They would have been caught making placebo remedies.

-Homeopathic physicians like Dr.George Vithoulkas, Philip Bailey and others would not have earned so much repute. Had it been a placebo, any uneducated quack would have done well with homeopathy.

-Had this been just a placebo, homeopathic colleges all over the world would not have survived.

-Had it been a placebo, every remedy would have the same effect on the individual ( feeling good )...but we know some remedies that are not indicated, don't act at all and only one remedy acts on a particular set of symptoms.

So, I feel your explanation on homeopathy being a placebo effect is not right. You can look up for more information and possibly get a better picture before outright rejecting it.

Also, I feel, the answer to this doesn't lie in the hydrogen oxygen covalent bond alone. It's an 'energy' transfer process through the remedy, that is sensed by our vital force. Thus, explanation to this could lie further deep down as to how quarks relate to vibrations and the same interacts with our soul.

Its a mystery for sure.

Before i make any attempt at dipping my foot in the water of mixing, dissolving and diluting homeopathy and chemistry together...

Is this statement what explains why water can have different effects when it changes pH value? I know that pH is suppose to vary depending on how much H+ is present. But is water determined as more or less acidic because of some change in the degree of polarity of the fixed number of H+ present?

Thanks for removing the annoying quote mark substitutes.

Polarity deals with the lopsided way hydrogen attaches to oxygen which results in a positive side and a negative side like a magnet. This magnetic effect causes cohesion and adhesion.

Ions are molecules missing one or more electrons to equate with the protons in the nucleus which gives the molecule an electric charge and makes it much more susceptible to bonding with another molecule. The available electrons are measured by PH.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVT3Y3_gHGg

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Water memory Claims Under certain circumstances water can retain a "memory" of solute particles after arbitrarily large dilution.

Related scientific disciplines Chemistry, Medicine
Year proposed 1988
Original proponents Jacques Benveniste
Subsequent proponents Madeleine Ennis
Brian Josephson
Luc Montagnier
Various homeopaths
Pseudoscientific concepts

Water memory is the proposed ability of water to retain a memory of substances previously dissolved even after an arbitrary number of serial dilutions. It is claimed to be the mechanism by which homeopathic remedies work, even though they are diluted to the point that no single molecule of the original substance remains. Water memory defies conventional scientific understanding of physical chemistry knowledge and is not accepted by the scientific community. In 1988, Jacques Benveniste published a study supporting a water memory effect amid controversy in Nature, accompanied by an editorial by Nature's editor John Maddox urging readers to "suspend judgement" until the results could be replicated. In the years following publication, multiple supervised experiments were run by Benveniste's team, the United States Department of Defense, BBC's Horizon program, and other researchers, but no team has ever reproduced Benveniste's results in controlled conditions.

Heehee...that was such a cute video...nice refresher course... thanks MW

Ok, i get the polarity part.

You are right, it is the electron that changes pH value...not the polarity. Buffer systems have always been my weak point.

Anyway...this is what I know...

Amount of free H+ makes a solution acidic
Amount of free OH- makes a solution alkaline
This is the reason why H2O is the best solute/solvent for any acid or base. (H+)+(OH-)=HOH=H2O..and all that jazz...

The body is made up of 75% water, with varying pH levels depending on where it is and how the body is handling it.

Water also has a polarity that enables other ions to dissolve in it well. Whether it's (+) or (-). And this will relate to its tonicity in various compartments in the body.

It is these properties that make water important even in homeopathy.
Maybe OP's idea of "memory" in water is related to these? IDK.

That being said, im not a big fan of the concept of homeopathy. I even view some of its treatment methods radically dangerous. But, i will not discount the usefulness of certain principles of it indiscriminately for two reasons.
1 process of desensitization in certain illnesses.
2 since the body is also composed of lipids and proteins as well, you would need a compatible "cure" to get into the specific parts of the body. (ie. Fat soluble vs water soluble vs transport and carrier proteins)

But obviously, water in itself is neutral.
You can't cure a drowning man by adding more water into his body...

(to OP - im no expert on water, and correct me if i'm wrong, but I think the "mystery" you are fixated with relates more on the philosophy and emotions evoked by the physical properties of water, not the science behind it)

Now, i want to reiterate my question. Why and how is it that some drinking water is marketed as alkaline? Not unless they add some substance or process to increase the free (OH-). But then, that would mean it's not just H2O in a bottle. Right?

Renowned homeopath Dr.George Vithoulkas from Greece says he had challenged the Medical Journal-Lancet's publication on homeopathy and was willing to demonstrate that homeopathy worked. Till now nobody has ever accepted his challenge.

Pansy, I am no expert on water either but I know a lot of homeopathy as I am practicing it for the past 10 years. I understand it works but I am unable to get the science behind it. In every book of homeopathy I read, I am told it works because water retains the typical property of the solute even after diluting it so such an extent that there's no solute in the solution in the physical form.

To add to the mystery, if this high potency remedy is taken repeatedly by a patient, without much time lapse, the patient undergoes extreme aggravation of his symptoms. This is a fact and it happens every time till the patient becomes insensitive to the potency.

Now, tell me, having seen all that in the last 10 years again and again in the course of my practice, why a pragmatic guy like me would not call it a mystery or a phenomenon of water that has not been understood by us?

... all I know is you put it with soap..
.. and it gets all the dirt off me..
because I'm a dirty dirty man.. and its squishy..

'cause no one so far has been stupid enough to waste time on something like that!

Really?? Then I wonder why people flock Dr.George Vithoulkas' or Dr. Philip Bailey's homeopathic hospital from all over the world.

I wonder why there are hundreds of homeopathic colleges and long distance courses available in Europe that are surviving for decades?

I wonder why remedy manufacturers are still flourishing selling their placebos and skeptics like you have not yet been able to file a case of fraud on either the manufacturers or physicians?

I wonder why governments are allowing such fraudulent activities happening in their countries and people being cheated?

I wonder why online homeopathic forums are visited by hundreds of patients everyday to seek online homeopathic treatment...visit www.abchomeopathy.com and check yourself.

Do you have any answers to the above...or would you say everything is a farce?

I wonder how long you guys will stick to your false perceptions without checking it out yourself for once.

1. If the methods of homeopathy really can be proven, homeopathic experts would demonstrate the evidence just for the sake of proving it works -- for the sake of curing patients. No challenge is needed to be posed or accepted.

2. It would be favorable for homeopathic practitioners to conduct randomized double blinded studies to make appropriate headway in the medical community.

3. Even if common treatment methods used in homeopathy can be shown to have positive end-results through studies, experimentation is still needed to uncover the physiologic basis behind it, in order to be acceptable to the basic and applied sciences community. If you really are interested in defending the entire practice of homeopathy, it behooves you to present your evidence and data. Not simply sell an idea.

4. I know that you are not a homeopathic practitioner 24/7, but i will go by what you claim. In your 10 years +/- of practice, what illnesses have you treated mostly?

5. have you ever thought of another possibility that involved other factors for the curing effect you have seen, aside from the idea of water 'remembering'? Have you done experimental research yourself in what you practice?Because that is essential in all sciences, and i am not sure if you really view water "memory" as a science or as a philosophy to begin with when you posed your original question.

6. Do you have your clients sign waiver forms before they undergo homeopathic treatments? If so, what is included in it? For ethico-legal concerns, since you mentioned fraudulent activities.

Uh, because P.T. Barnum was correct?

All your questions can be answered if you have the will to accept new information and to go a little deeper to understand it.

As I have already said, every treatment method has limitations and homeopathy is no exception. However, a physician has to first decide if the patient can be cured with homeopathy or not.

Our body cures itself by our immune mechanism. Homeopathic remedies don't cure by themselves, They just have to create a stimulus to evoke a suitable response from our vitality or the immune system. This response actually overcomes the diseases symptom.

We don't use homeopathy in cases of big injury or acute infection which can be termed as serious problems. Rest of the chronic ailments, like gastritis, skin problems like eczema, psoriasis or rashes etc., mental depression, chronic headaches, chronic asthma, chronic liver disorders, PMS due to ovarian cysts in ladies or other menstrual problems, any kind of mental problem, arthritis or gout etc. can be cured.

There's no side effect in such treatments as only the patient's vital forces are involved. There's no chemistry involved...just energy that mimics the disease symptoms. So, there is no need to take any signed declaration from the patient. Either the remedy will cure the patient, or will not. It depends whether the homeopath has given him the correct remedy or not. The physician that gives the correct remedy 9 out of 10 times, he is considered a good homeopath.

But don't blame homeopathy for it...and certainly don't underestimate the fantastic property of water.

I know that. But like I said, gotta present the data and the science behind it.

Some of your above statements are covered by immunology and rheumatology, separately and in conjunction.

Homeopathy uses concepts explained by these two clinical sciences. Not the other way around.

Water is not only fantastic, it's also essential. But it's not all that mysterious... Except maybe in homeopathy...

That's right...homeopathy wouldn't have survived without this property of water.

Immunology is very central to Homeopathy as without the response of our immune-system, curing cannot take place. Remedies only provide the stimulus...just like a vaccine which introduces some infected molecules in the system and our immune system, in response, creates receptor cells creating immunity against infection.

In case of homeopathy, it is not the infected cells but the signature of the solute which evokes a response and thus the disease is overcome.

Hence, the "memory" of water that seems to mystefy you so much in homeopathy..

...is called "dilution" in science...

That is what you were looking for, right? The scientific reason behind the mystery of water..

Exactly !! I was looking for the science behind this mystery that how could a drop of water that has no more solute in the material form still produces a stimulus to our physiological system that it is capable of bringing about a response.

I did some research and found that the homeopathic medicines are mostly non-regulated because they are too diluted with water to be harmful. If the produce can be sold "over the counter" then a person could buy it anyway without a prescription. "Freedom of speech" gives a lot of leeway in "claims of effectiveness", even without any proof of effectiveness.


In Great Britain ...

From Wiki:

"In February 2010 the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee concluded that: "the NHS should cease funding homeopathy. It also concludes that the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) should not allow homeopathic product labels to make medical claims without evidence of efficacy. As they are not medicines, homeopathic products should no longer be licensed by the MHRA." Part of the conclusions state that "When the NHS funds homeopathy, it endorses it. Since the NHS Constitution explicitly gives people the right to expect that decisions on the funding of drugs and treatments are made 'following a proper consideration of the evidence', patients may reasonably form the [misleading] view [inferred from the fact of any NHS financial support] that homeopathy is an evidence-based treatment." Since no evidence of benefit was found – other than the placebo effect – the report's recommendation was that "The Government should stop allowing the funding of homeopathy on the NHS."[44] The government stated that this decision would be left open to the Primary Care Trusts, the smaller bodies in charge of regional NHS management, instead of being done by the government itself.[45] In June 2010, the British Medical Association voted three to one in favour of a motion that homeopathy should be banned from the NHS, and kept from being sold as medicine in pharmacies.[46] In February 2011, out of 104 Primary Care Trusts who responded to queries, 72 said they did not fund homeopathy, with 10 of these having stopped funding homeopathy in the last four years.[47] By the 2011/12 financial year the percentage of PCTs funding homeopathy had fallen to 15%.[48]

In July 2013 the UK Advertising Standards Authority concluded that homeopathy sellers were engaging in false advertising regarding their claims of efficacy of homeopathic products and that at the same time they discouraged users from seeking essential treatments for conditions for which they were needed."

Apparently claims, such are "The water remembers the signature of the drug" in a dilute form that no longer contains any of the drug, work because there are enough gullible people in existence who don't know any better.