Toddlers in a mind sense then. Physically they were mature, but mentally they weren't. They had no knowledge of good and bad, they couldn't have been mature in mind on that basis alone.

So i guess your typing that Eve talked like "Dah gaga gaga goo" and Adam talked like "BAM BAM BAMBAMBAM"?

toddler , between when they first start walking and first start school?

yeah, they are still learning, but neither of my chidren talked like' ga ga ga ga' anymore by the time they were toddlers of say two years old


and both knew the basic premise that it is 'wrong' to do what mommy tells you not to,,, probably by the time they were three,,,

Yes but AGAIN, if that's ALL they know, there is no way at ALL that the punishment for disobedience fit the crime here. And to answer your earlier comment, your argument fails because God CONTROLS the consequence, he doesn't HAVE to condemn them, he CHOOSES to. That's far different from the lesson learned by touching your hand on the stove, which you cannot control.

He could have come up with other ways surely to teach Adam and Eve why what they did was bad given their mindsets, but no he just chose to condemn at the first thing they did wrong. It is idiotic. That's like a cop giving someone a life sentence for the first small law they broke. No logic in it at all.

And why was EVERYONE except Satan punished? That is also idiotic, instead of punishing the one who did the tricking, you punish the victims, yeah that's the picture of a loving being isn't it?

Satan is punished. HE is exiled from heaven. He has no forgiveness and will burn eternally.

the difference in perception is one of 'consequence' vs 'punishment'

its easy to question the consequence when one doesnt have the responsibility for creating them

nature all works together, so do actions and consequences,

we could just LIVE FOREVER healthy and young regardless of our mistakes, but then how seriously would we take them and how motivated would we be to do better

I think love is about doing more than just whats easy, and 'loving' and allowing whatever someone wants,,,,

part of love is also discipline and guidance,,,,

For me God encompasses all of what real love involves, not just the motion picture, sweet, and gooey stuff,,,,

the Creator creates things to guide and teach us, even the difficult things that become necessary because of our stubborn and selfish human nature,,,

Knowledge is evil?

knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL, makes one responsible for evil

so, knowledge in general is not evil

knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL, invites evil in though,,,

Does the knowledge of interpersonal morality make you intellectually mature? Adam and Eve knew that they should obey God and they had the intellectual acumen to try to argue their way out of trouble, so I don't see toddlers here. You are ignoring evidence, which clearly disproves your argument.

The Jews have 613 Commandments, called Mitzvots. Which would be easier to follow, 613 Commandments or 1? Until Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they were unaware of the complex moral landscape in which we live and only knew one commandment "Obey God".

No they didn't know they "should" obey God. Should or shouldn't obey something would be what morals are made of. They didn't know of "good" or "evil" they had no idea what "morals" where. They knew God told them not to eat of the tree, but they didn't know it would be "wrong" to eat of the tree. For again, that lays in morals of listening/disobeying. They did not know they were "disobeying" when they ate of the tree.

Just as a child does not know they are doing "wrong" by disobeying. Or even really what "wrong" is.

That's still the only commandment all in all.

Of course they knew, don't be ridiculous. God couldn't have justly punished them for disobedience, if they hadn't know that they were to obey Him. You paint yourself into this corners, where you have to state that God is wrong. If God punished Adam and Eve for doing something that they didn't know was wrong, then God is cruel and unjust.

Didn't say they didn't know they were to obey him. Right and wrong are purely perspective point of views. There is absolutely no absolute factual line between right and wrong.

They didn't know it would be "wrong" to disobey God, for again they did not know right from wrong at the time of mention. Just as a kid doesn't know it's "wrong" to steal a cookie out of the cookie jar when their parents aren't looking. They know they've been told not to do it, but they don't grasp the concept of morals and things of that nature.

Even a little kid is gonna try and hide if they do something wrong or that their parents told them not to do. And don't even try to deny it, you know it's true. It doesn't mean they understand WHY. Sorry, your argument is a big fail.

double post

For once we actually agree on something. If they have no real concept of what wrong is, it is flat evil to punish them as if they did know.

Ever stop to think it's true?? Take off your religious blinders for a minute, you might actually learn something.

learning something is much more rare in this forum than preaching something,, whether its preaching belief or disbelief,,,

Ah, the arrogance of youth.

They were not punished for doing "wrong", or doing "evil", or anything of such. They purely got punished for eating of the tree of knowledge. Regardless if they knew it was wrong to be specifically "disobedient", we were not punished for being "disobedient". We were punished plainly for eating of the tree of knowledge, when God told them specifically not to eat of it.