Topic: The Materialism Disorder | |
---|---|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 01/24/12 04:38 PM
|
|
As long as there is space, there is energy. As long as there is energy there is matter. These are true statements, and if you understand that by eternal I just mean there will always be matter where you find space, then you will not need 4 pages of off topic posts to get on track. Virtual particles are real, they are matter, and if you have space you have energy, and you will have virtual particles. This does not require any cosmological model. It only requires QM and special relativity to explain. Eternal might have been a poor choice of word, but it shouldn't take 4 pages to understand my meaning. Yes, if you have space you have energy. That's a given. Space is evidence of energy and matter but without energy and matter, space could not exist. These things are all interdependent and part of the whole. Energy came first, then matter, then space and time. That is - if anything came first, it had to be energy. But in my view, consciousness came first. Energy changes into matter. Matter effects and bends space. |
|
|
|
Then there is the possibility that this universe is not the only thing that exists. Perhaps it has a Mother universe.
|
|
|
|
As long as there is space, there is energy. As long as there is energy there is matter. These are true statements, and if you understand that by eternal I just mean there will always be matter where you find space, then you will not need 4 pages of off topic posts to get on track. Virtual particles are real, they are matter, and if you have space you have energy, and you will have virtual particles. This does not require any cosmological model. It only requires QM and special relativity to explain. Eternal might have been a poor choice of word, but it shouldn't take 4 pages to understand my meaning. It took four pages for you to think of an "out", so that you wouldn't have to admit you were wrong. I will say this, I think you might actually get some people to believe that is what you were talking about all along. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 01/24/12 06:37 PM
|
|
Yeh what Bushidobillyclub is saying that as long as the universe exists there will be energy and matter.
So is this universe going to last forever? Is it infinite? I sort of doubt it. But there may be other universes beyond this one. |
|
|
|
Yeh what Bushidobillyclub is saying that as long as the universe exists there will be energy and matter. So is this universe going to last forever? Is it infinite? I sort of doubt it. But there may be other universes beyond this one. Yeah...um...he argued for 4 pages until he came up with that "explanation" for his post. Did you really read all of the four pages and still think that? |
|
|
|
Yeh what Bushidobillyclub is saying that as long as the universe exists there will be energy and matter. So is this universe going to last forever? Is it infinite? I sort of doubt it. But there may be other universes beyond this one. Yeah...um...he argued for 4 pages until he came up with that "explanation" for his post. Did you really read all of the four pages and still think that? Me? Nah I didn't really read all 4 pages with care. But what else could he possibly mean? Is eternity and infinity the same thing? I don't know. But a statement like "As long as there is space there is energy. and As long as there is energy there is matter." Doesn't really prove anything. I don't understand the purpose of that statement. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Tue 01/24/12 09:24 PM
|
|
So whats the materialism disorder? What are some of the characteristics?
Edit: Ahhh man, for you guys out there actually interested in this stuff, this link is pretty good! http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_vitzthum/materialism.html Further edit: Reading a bit on Buechner's Force and Matter. Good stuff! Further further Edit: Clearly I am a reductive materialist. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 01/24/12 10:02 PM
|
|
A personal opinion.
One thing I've noticed about extreme materialists is that they can be somewhat boring and spiritually stunted. They seem to deny their spiritual side and are immersed in the mental process. (They are very mental and they seem to worship logic and reason; both mental processes.) They get annoyed with people who have faith in any concept of a higher mind or higher power. They have extremely high opinions of their own knowledge and seem to rely on and value education more than their own feelings or personal experiences. They don't believe in intuition so they have lost touch with their own. To me they seem less innovative and less creative than more spiritual people. They think psychics are all frauds, (and there are plenty of mental materialists who pretend to be psychic and are indeed frauds.) These characters, are totally convinced that psychics don't exist because they themselves are total frauds. Materialists blame all the ills of the world on religion and superstition. They find it hard to give love freely because they try to analyze it like everything else. |
|
|
|
A personal opinion. One thing I've noticed about extreme materialists is that they can be somewhat boring and spiritually stunted. They seem to deny their spiritual side and are immersed in the mental process. (They are very mental and they seem to worship logic and reason; both mental processes.) They get annoyed with people who have faith in any concept of a higher mind or higher power. They have extremely high opinions of their own knowledge and seem to rely on and value education more than their own feelings or personal experiences. They don't believe in intuition so they have lost touch with their own. To me they seem less innovative and less creative than more spiritual people. They think psychics are all frauds, (and there are plenty of mental materialists who pretend to be psychic and are indeed frauds.) These characters, are totally convinced that psychics don't exist because they themselves are total frauds. Materialists blame all the ills of the world on religion and superstition. They find it hard to give love freely because they try to analyze it like everything else. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Redykeulous
on
Wed 01/25/12 08:39 AM
|
|
So whats the materialism disorder? What are some of the characteristics? Edit: Ahhh man, for you guys out there actually interested in this stuff, this link is pretty good! http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_vitzthum/materialism.html Further edit: Reading a bit on Buechner's Force and Matter. Good stuff! Further further Edit: Clearly I am a reductive materialist. WHOO HOO - it only took (how many pages) for someone to bring enough claity and 'reduction' to the topic to acturally discuss - Bushidobillyclub said: Clearly I am a reductive materialist
Now let's see what others can do with that statement. edited to add the second end quote bracket. |
|
|
|
Now let's see what others can do with that statement. Read my mind
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 01/25/12 11:50 AM
|
|
Reductive Materialism:
The view that only the material world (matter) is truly real, and that all processes and realities observed in the universe can be explained by reducing them down to their most basic scientific components, e.g., atoms, molecules, and everything else thought to make up what we know as "matter." For example, a reductive materialist would view the miraculous and unexpected healing of a supposedly terminal cancer patient as a random coincidence of solely biological and physiological processes in the person's body. While, on the other hand, some might view the healing as stemming from factors contributing to the biological factors, e.g., prayer or meditation.
If this is how you think, then clearly you do not recognize the the state of a person's health can be changed and effected by the thoughts that person thinks and the attitudes they hold. Thoughts and attitude effect your health. Here is a list of things that will effect your well being: 1. The thoughts you think 2. The air you breath. 3. The water you drink. 4. The food you eat. 5. The exercise (movements) you engage in. THEY ARE IN ORDER OF THEIR IMPORTANCE. There is no such thing as coincidence. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Wed 01/25/12 12:06 PM
|
|
Not really. If there is a change, that change can be attributed to physical causative factors and reduced to material interactions. No need to use the word random, or coincidence to describe the effect.
The view that only the material world (matter) is truly real, and that all processes and realities observed in the universe can be explained by reducing them down to their most basic scientific components, e.g., atoms, molecules, and everything else thought to make up what we know as "matter." For example, a reductive materialist would view the miraculous and unexpected healing of a supposedly terminal cancer patient as a random coincidence of solely biological and physiological processes in the person's body. While, on the other hand, some might view the healing as stemming from factors contributing to the biological factors, e.g., prayer or meditation. This is not accurate, really pretty generic. Not the best from PBS. If evidence of prayer being an effective therapy existed, then a reductive materialist would study the material interactions to understand the effect. That is exact what has been done, and we named the effect the placebo effect. You really have to understand a great deal more than assuming becuase a given response occurred that the prayer was the cause. So what ever effect is being analyzed the materialist starts from a position that the cause is natural and can be understood in terms of material interactions. That is all that really needs to be said. Now if you want to discuss the placebo effect in greater detail that takes understanding things like confirmation bias, regression to the mean, and other factors such as sympathetic response. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 01/25/12 12:48 PM
|
|
Not really. If there is a change, that change can be attributed to physical causative factors and reduced to material interactions. No need to use the word random, or coincidence to describe the effect. The view that only the material world (matter) is truly real, and that all processes and realities observed in the universe can be explained by reducing them down to their most basic scientific components, e.g., atoms, molecules, and everything else thought to make up what we know as "matter." For example, a reductive materialist would view the miraculous and unexpected healing of a supposedly terminal cancer patient as a random coincidence of solely biological and physiological processes in the person's body. While, on the other hand, some might view the healing as stemming from factors contributing to the biological factors, e.g., prayer or meditation. This is not accurate, really pretty generic. Not the best from PBS. If evidence of prayer being an effective therapy existed, then a reductive materialist would study the material interactions to understand the effect. That is exact what has been done, and we named the effect the placebo effect. You really have to understand a great deal more than assuming becuase a given response occurred that the prayer was the cause. So what ever effect is being analyzed the materialist starts from a position that the cause is natural and can be understood in terms of material interactions. That is all that really needs to be said. Now if you want to discuss the placebo effect in greater detail that takes understanding things like confirmation bias, regression to the mean, and other factors such as sympathetic response. Then it boils down to the electrical (material) things that happen to the body and brain after thought or belief are initiated. BUT it is not the electrical reactions but the actual thought/belief that is cause. It boils down to thought and belief (attitude) and the physical or material effects of that. Then the question to ponder is free will and how well can we as conscious beings manage and control our thoughts. Prayer, is basically thought/belief. They say you must believe and have faith for prayer to work and that is thought/belief. Belief in the fake medicine is the placebo effect and that is thought/belief/attitude. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 01/25/12 12:56 PM
|
|
A personal opinion. One thing I've noticed about extreme materialists is that they can be somewhat boring and spiritually stunted. They seem to deny their spiritual side and are immersed in the mental process. (They are very mental and they seem to worship logic and reason; both mental processes.) They get annoyed with people who have faith in any concept of a higher mind or higher power. They have extremely high opinions of their own knowledge and seem to rely on and value education more than their own feelings or personal experiences. They don't believe in intuition so they have lost touch with their own. To me they seem less innovative and less creative than more spiritual people. They think psychics are all frauds, (and there are plenty of mental materialists who pretend to be psychic and are indeed frauds.) These characters, are totally convinced that psychics don't exist because they themselves are total frauds. Materialists blame all the ills of the world on religion and superstition. They find it hard to give love freely because they try to analyze it like everything else. No, they didn't. The dreamers, artists and creators did that. The materialists and scientists simply took someone else's idea and made it work or improved on it. Its a group effort. We are all connected and we all work together whether or not we even realize it. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Wed 01/25/12 01:55 PM
|
|
Finally, reductive materialism applauds and identifies itself with the stunning success of the reductive program of 20th century science as a whole. It regards such triumphs of human intelligence as the establishment of the periodic table of elements and of the standard model of elementary particles as surely among humanity's greatest achievements. The periodic table and the standard model are outstanding examples of the relentless effort of scientists in this century to uncover deeper and deeper levels of physical explanation and to reduce their findings to more and more comprehensive and fundamental theories. Equally outstanding has been the effort to unify the four basic forces of nature at greater and greater levels of generalization. Already it has been proven that two of the four forces, electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force, were unified at energy levels that are theorized to have existed until a billionth of a second after the Big Bang had passed, after which they split. At a still earlier moment, it's theorized that the electroweak force was unified with the strong nuclear force, and at a still more primordial moment before that -- the so-called Planck era, when the universe was still less than 10 to the minus 43rd seconds old and seethed with a thousand million billion billion volts of energy -- the electroweak and strong nuclear forces were still unified with the fourth force, gravity. Modern scientific reductionism has succeeded in showing that the manifold phenomena of physical nature -- light, heat, rocks, flora, fauna, consciousness -- are probably manifestations of a single, foundational, material reality, perhaps ultimately describable in the terms of some future human science. Materialism welcomes this success as further confirmation of its 2500-year-old hypotheses.
What has spiritualism given us? ==== PS, the placebo effect does not engage with the pathology of disease only the sympathetic effects of the symptoms. ie, it is not a cure, therapy, or efficacious at all. |
|
|
|
PS, the placebo effect does not engage with the pathology of disease only the sympathetic effects of the symptoms. ie, it is not a cure, therapy, or efficacious at all.
I don't think you have anyway of knowing or proving that statement. Even if a person was cured of something serious by way of attitude or belief, the scientific community would not know how to verify or recognize it. The reason is because they have no way of duplicating the experiment of someone's though or attitude. I have read of cases of a hypnotic suggestion that actually caused a person to drop dead on a specific date. When these things happen, materialists and scientists call it coincidence. There are no coincidences. There is only cause and effect. |
|
|
|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 01/25/12 04:08 PM
|
|
What has spiritualism given us?
Speaking for myself: Joy, Love, Balance, understanding, creativity, imagination, intuition, hope, inspiration, insight. |
|
|
|
Finally, reductive materialism applauds and identifies itself with the stunning success of the reductive program of 20th century science as a whole. It regards such triumphs of human intelligence as the establishment of the periodic table of elements and of the standard model of elementary particles as surely among humanity's greatest achievements. The periodic table and the standard model are outstanding examples of the relentless effort of scientists in this century to uncover deeper and deeper levels of physical explanation and to reduce their findings to more and more comprehensive and fundamental theories. Equally outstanding has been the effort to unify the four basic forces of nature at greater and greater levels of generalization. Already it has been proven that two of the four forces, electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force, were unified at energy levels that are theorized to have existed until a billionth of a second after the Big Bang had passed, after which they split. At a still earlier moment, it's theorized that the electroweak force was unified with the strong nuclear force, and at a still more primordial moment before that -- the so-called Planck era, when the universe was still less than 10 to the minus 43rd seconds old and seethed with a thousand million billion billion volts of energy -- the electroweak and strong nuclear forces were still unified with the fourth force, gravity. Modern scientific reductionism has succeeded in showing that the manifold phenomena of physical nature -- light, heat, rocks, flora, fauna, consciousness -- are probably manifestations of a single, foundational, material reality, perhaps ultimately describable in the terms of some future human science. Materialism welcomes this success as further confirmation of its 2500-year-old hypotheses.
|
|
|
|
David Bohm - science and spirituality (1917-1992) Famous for his 'Implicate and Explicite Order', quantum physicist David Bohm combines a knowledge of current day physics with a spiritual vision of the universe. His parents were immigrant European Jews, but David went to college and worked with one of the greats in theoretical Physics: Robert Oppenheimer. During WWII his work was harder because the government didn't trust him. Oppenheimer vouched for him, and Bohm did calculations that helped create the Atomic bomb. After the war, during the McCarthy-era, Bohm refused to testify against colleges and went to work in Brazil, after a brief period of working with Albert Einstein himself. He has also contributed to neuropsychology and is most famous outside the scientific world for his theory of implicate and explicate order (click below). http://www.squidoo.com/david-bohm |
|
|