I do not see how any reasonable definition of "poor" effects/affects the five claims below, but the question has some utility. Let's see if we can use it to our advantage in order to bring to light some other common aspects of political discourse.

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1. A consumer can only afford that which his/her means allows them to afford.
2. A consumer can only purchase that which offered in the marketplace.
3. The more poor people you have, the more cheap products you can sell.
4. The cheaper the product can be made, the higher the profit margin.
5. The more good paying jobs that are moved overseas, the more poor people you have.

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What definition of "poor" would you see fit for a discussion about "poor" American citizens? What definition of "poor" do you see fit for establishing what constitutes "good paying jobs" in America? I do not see how it makes much of a difference, other than perhaps a relational one. I mean, to whom or to what living/working conditions are we comparing in order to call an American "poor", in order to cal a job "good paying"? Ought we establish what constitutes being a "poor" American to what "poor" Chinese people have? Ought we establish what constitutes being "good paying" American jobs to what the 'middle class' of Afghanistan makes in year in US dollars?

What does constitute being "poor" in America, and perhaps more importantly, what criterion ought be used to establish such a thing?

Work with me here.

We can debate how to fix the economy of Belarus if you want, but since this is about changing what ails this particular country let us stay with in its confines.

I asked what YOU define as a poor person living in America today.

Good, so I take it that you agree that what constitutes being "poor" in America ought be related to American wages, ought be determined by what constitutes being an acceptable American quality of life?

I do agree.

Then we ought establish what constitutes being "poor" by comparison to what constitutes being "rich", furthermore we ought establish what constitutes being an acceptable wage according to those parameters ought we not? Those numbers are available.

The first part is fine. Is the acceptable wage a general minimum wage?

After we establish this we then need to establish the root causes and circumstances that create a divide between lets say the working poor and the upper middle class.

I think exploring causation is a must.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcuwYg2tOdI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ6qPNKXYiI&feature=related

Well Invictus, there can be no doubt that some people squander opportunity. I suppose my aim is that all people have a good opportunity. Think about this way...

There are some who have the financial means to make huge costly mistakes and not have those mistakes cost them their livlihood, and then there are others who, because of having little to no 'wiggle room' in their financial picture, the smallest set back to others would amount to a nearly unsurmountable problem to them.

I don't think that a huge increase in the general minumum wage would be feasible, nor would it correct the huge desparity in wealth and opportunity that exists in this country.

I agree that all must have the opportunity.

I think the biggest disagreement we will have is what to do with those that squander the opportunity.

I don't believe that those who give their all and even more should be subject to supporting those that preferred not to take advantage of the opportunity.

I was looking through a report that cited the disparity in wages between someone with an associates degree and someone with only a HS diploma.

Something very simple the government could do is double the funding for Pell Grants from $30 billion to $60 billion. That $60 billion will look like peanuts when the numbers of people that rely on other government programs move off of them and contribute in terms of productivity and taxes. It lifts a burden off of all of us, but most importantly those that would have a better life because of it.

Do you believe that a BA or BS ought be required for a good wage? Do you believe that the degree itself qualifies someone as an expert in that particular field?



Ought each suffer the same consequence from the same mistakes and have the same opportunity(ies)?

A degree is the key that unlocks the doors of opportunity.

A degree by itself guarantees nothing. You have to always improve your skills and keep on top of changes within the field you are working.

You aren't an expert in any field upon graduation.

The average salary for someone with a Bachelors degree is $55,000. Someone with a HS diploma is $33,000.

What do you define as a good wage?

The same opportunity to access higher education.

Obviously, there are people that aren't going to be able to become doctors or biomedical engineers.

You have to realistic. The same level of intelligence and ability as a Physicist is not required to be successful and gain employment in a very large number of high paying career fields.

There is nothing equal when it comes to human suffering. A group of people living in the same village in Somalia and under the exact same conditions of poverty may seem indistinct, but they deal with their plight in different ways. Some may think that it will never end. Others may think of ways to make the situation better.

Humans have the uncanny ability of making something out of nothing and it is usually a highly motivated individual that gets progress started.

Degrees require money. So the doors of opportunity require money. No everyone has money. That closes the doors to many people.

Did you miss the part of my post where I discussed Pell Grants?

You can get an associate degree and almost the entire cost of the 2 years are covered by the grant.

The more need the more money you get. The poorest of the poor can get the grant. That is who it is designed to help.

If you achieve academically while at a 2 year school you are able to get more grants plus scholarships to help with getting the Bachelors.

The 2 year degree can open the door to a job that has tuition reimbursement. As I have previously stated businesses want quality well educated people. In many cases they are more than willing to cover tuition costs.

I don't buy into the "they can't pay for college".

I just checked the grant awards for 2011.

$5550 is the maximum award.

That easily covers the entire cost of tuition and books at my local community college.

No excuses..

What makes a socialist a socialist is the ability to put themselves in someonelses shoes and stand up for someone elses plight; its called humanity and and those lacking that transpositional ability range from the simpering deluded who think their is nothing wrong in the world to the psycopaths who think they own it.

Socialism has certainly come a long way.

You believe that 5500 covers a years books and tuition?

5550 is a federal program, in order to get the grant you must FIRST apply for the loans,,,,(its the fine print)...so you still wont get 'free' school (unless you manage to get scholarships)