I've never met anyone who so desperately needs approval for their beliefs.

You have your beliefs, and I have mine.

From my perspective I've shown countless contradictions in the biblical fables that you haven't even come close to resolving.

The Hebrews claimed that the Canaanites had turned from God and rejected God, but at the same time they acknowledged that the Canaanites were sacrificing their own children to the Gods.

People who reject God don't sacrifices their babies to the Gods.

Same is true for the Egyptians. They too were accused by the Hebrews of rejecting God, but it's clear from Egyptian history that they believed in, and worshiped many Gods, so it's crystal clear that they were not rejecting God.

Had they rejected God they wouldn't be worshiping make-believe Gods.

It's clear that the Hebrews were just accusing other cultures of worshiping "false Gods". I'm sure the other cultures felt the same way about the Hebrews.

Moreover, no genuine all-knowing, all-wise deity would have made that mistake in these stories. Thus we have confirmed proof that these stories are nothing more than the over-zealous finger-pointing of one human culture toward other human cultures.

The proof is right there in the pudding.

If the Canaanites and Egyptians had knowingly rejected God using their own FREE WILL CHOICE then they wouldn't have been worshiping "false Gods" because they would have already made their FREE WILL CHOICE to reject God.

You can't have your cake and eat it too with these religions.

Clearly the Canaanite and Egyptians did not knowingly make any FREE WILL CHOICE to reject God since they were indeed trying their very best to worship and appease the Gods.

For crying out loud the Canaanites were supposedly sacrificing their own children to the Gods! That's DEVOTION! And certainly not a rebellious refusal to serve the Gods.

So the Hebrew fables are clearly a farce.

Sorry to have to break the news to you, but the proof is right there in the stories themselves.

LOL!!! I need absolutely NO approval for my beliefs. You're funny Abra, I'm start'n to get accustomed to your humor.



Goes along with the statement "actions speak louder then words". Our heavenly father has not told us to sacrifice our children. Never did he EVER tell us to do this. This actually goes against what God has told us. God has told us not to kill someone. Sacrificing someone would fall into that category lol.



If you talk to a box like it was your dad. Treat this box like you would treat your dad, does that make the box your dad? No it does not lol. The Egyptians worshiped what they thought to be God(s). They didn't worship our one and only father who art in heaven. Thus they were worshiping false idols.

The reason I don't believe in these stories is because they are stupid. Thus in answer to your question "How would it be God's fault that I don't believe", my answer would be because God can't expect me to believe that he's as stupid as the biblical stories demand.

Of course, that's a moot point isn't it?

The stories wouldn't be as stupid as they are if they were truly the word of an all-wise God. So this wouldn't even be an issue if we had stories from an actual God because those stories wouldn't be stupid.

The fact that these stories are stupid, reveals that they are nothing more than the fables of men.

So the very idea of a God who demands that people believe in him is a BOGUS idea to begin with as far as I'm concerned.

There is no justification for any God who plays hide-and-seek to demand that people believe in him. That's just plain stupid, IMHO.



Back in the days when these religions were created they were indeed highly POLITICAL TOOLS. Let there be no doubt about that. They were used by Kings to control armies and all the Kings subjects.

Moreover, it wasn't like today. Back then even you, yourself, would be considered a "heretic"!

You would need to cower down to the CHURCH!

You couldn't be running grounding denying the existence of hell like you do today. You would be considered a heathen and chastised for your behavior back then. Make a scene about it or try to be as persistent about it as your are on these forums and you'd probably join the ranks of headless people in the graveyard.

Today the religion just runs on leftover superstition, fear, and/or hopes and dreams by those who feel they are going to heaven.

In fact, the religion was even used within the biblical stories. It was used to incite a slaughter of the Canaanites. So it was USEFUL for the men who wanted to take over that piece of real estate in the name of "God".

It's always been used by men for their own purposes. Only in recent times has it basically LOST any power to be used in that capacity and that's only because secular laws and governments have superseded it. And for no other reason.

Conversing with you is a total waste of time because you have no ability to comprehend meaningful issues.

If the Canaanites were sacrificing their children to the Gods then they could not have made a FREE WILL CHOICE to refuse to worship God since they were clearly attempting to do so.

Again, if there was some sort of miscommunication going on between the Canaanites and God, that could only have been God's fault.

Why? You might ask. Well between them and God, God is the only one who can recognize and correct any miscommunication, therefore the responsibility lies entirely with the only entity who is capable of correcting it. The Canaanites cannot be held responsible for not correcting something they have no power to correct.

It's crystal clear that the Canaanite had not chosen to refuse to worship God because if they had, they wouldn't be attempting to worship God via sacrificing their children to him.

You inability to grasp the depth and importance of this observation is not my concern. It's no wonder you can see the contradictions in these stories, you can't even recognize them.




If you talk to a box like it was your dad. Treat this box like you would treat your dad, does that make the box your dad? No it does not lol. The Egyptians worshiped what they thought to be God(s). They didn't worship our one and only father who art in heaven. Thus they were worshiping false idols.


Again, if you think a box is your dad and you're trying to do right by the box, then clearly you're trying to do right by your dad.

Obviously your sincerity and heart are in the right place. Obviously you are in the dark as to who your real dad is.

So again, who would be responsible for this? Well, your dad of course!

You're dad would need to step forward and help you to understand that he's not a box.

Once again, you couldn't blame the person who was trying to talk to the box as their 'dad'. At best they are confused. They certainly aren't making a rebellious decision to refuse to talk with their dad. If they had done that they they wouldn't be trying to talk to the box as if it was their dad.

So you're analogies fail.

The only way that people can reject as God knowingly and via their own "FREE WILL CHOICE" would be to do just that, reject God, period.

They can't be turning around and worshiping "New Gods", because that would implies that they have not rejected God at all, but instead they are indeed trying to worship God.

So the Hebrews are caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Their fables are false accusations that cannot be the "Word" of any God.

Stupid is merely a personal opinion. You have no grounds on weather it's stupid or not, that is merely YOUR opinion that they are, nothing factual, nothing theoretical, nothing hypothetical, just merely YOUR opinion and feelings on it.



God isn't playing hide-and-seek. God is not hiding. It was man and your mind thinking that made US move away from God. God didn't budge, move, change, slip away, hide away, or anything. It was man that left God. Our loving father has given us a second chance to come back and right what our forefathers did wrong.



So you're justifying scapegoats for others now? How is it the talkers fault if the listener doesn't listen to what the talker is saying?



How can one worship God in the same instance of disobeying him? What kind of worship is that? They were being disobediently-obedient? Lol that's an oxymoron right there.

Again, if you think a box is your dad and you're trying to do right by the box, then clearly you're trying to do right by your dad.

Obviously your sincerity and heart are in the right place. Obviously you are in the dark as to who your real dad is.

So again, who would be responsible for this? Well, your dad of course!

You're dad would need to step forward and help you to understand that he's not a box.

Once again, you couldn't blame the person who was trying to talk to the box as their 'dad'. At best they are confused. They certainly aren't making a rebellious decision to refuse to talk with their dad. If they had done that they they wouldn't be trying to talk to the box as if it was their dad.

So you're analogies fail.

The only way that people can reject as God knowingly and via their own "FREE WILL CHOICE" would be to do just that, reject God, period.

They can't be turning around and worshiping "New Gods", because that would implies that they have not rejected God at all, but instead they are indeed trying to worship God.

So the Hebrews are caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Their fables are false accusations that cannot be the "Word" of any God.




And our father has. You just refuse to believe it was him and or that he even said it in the first place. Your way of thinking, again, God would have to make an appearance EVERY generation. Why should he have to do as such? Why could the word of him not just pass down from generation to generation?

There are many different religions fables. No one can know which ones might be from an actual God and which ones might be from idiots. Or if any of them are true. Atheism may very well be true for all anyone knows.

I personally feel that the biblical fables are clearly not from any all-wise God because they simply aren't even close to being wise fables. On the contrary it's my sincere opinion that they are utterly stupid. Having people nailed to poles to pay for sins? That sounds utterly stupid to me. Sorry.

I reject the biblical fables because they are stupid and riddled with totally unresolvable blatant contradictions in spite of your feeble denials. You haven't been able to resolve one to my satisfaction yet. Including the fact that the Canaanites and Egyptians cannot be said to have knowingly and willfully rejected the creator of this universe. They wouldn't continue to worship a creator image if they had done that knowingly.

So the whole fable caves in at that point. The Hebrews are caught red-handed in their lies. It's a show-stopper as far as I'm concerned.

Oh but on the contrary they have very well done that. You do it every day. You can relate to the Canaanites and Egyptians. You continuously reject God on a daily basis, refusing to believe just as they did.

voice 1; Apples...

voice 2; Oranges...

*****

voice 1; APPLES...

voice 2; NO ORANGES.....



voice 1; obviously you do not understand... APPLES.

voice 2; you must not see the truth... ORANGES.


Hehehehehehehe....

I don't reject God. That's your lie.

That's your totally unwarranted and arrogant judgment of me based on your obsession to use the biblical fables of Jesus as an excuse to pass judgment on other people and belittle them by claiming that they are ungodly or have rejected God simply because they don't believe in the ancient Hebrew account of God.

You are prime example of the kind of hateful hypocrite that Protestant Fundamentalism can unfortunately create. You spit in the face of Jesus and use him as weapon to pass judgments on anyone who refuses to cower down and worship your self-appointed Papal authority.

Evidently You lust to be POPE. You crave authority. And so you use Protestant Fundamentalism as an excuse to pretend to have authority. It's a common trap that a lot of egotists fall into unfortunately.

But the truth is that if you had the slightest respect for Protestantism you'd have to acknowledge that my interpretations of ancient scriptures are just as valid as yours. Just as you have come to believe that your interpretations are just as valid as the Catholic Pope's.

So your not honoring Protestantism that states that no single human authority will be respected as having the final say on scriptures. Protestant rejects that basic notion. No POPE! They reject the idea of having to cower down to the authority of a single mortal human as having the final say in how people must interpret these ancient stories.

So now what you're doing is using Protestantism as an excuse to try to steal authority from the Pope and become a self-appointed Paper Pope of your own making.

You're now going to tell everyone how the Biblical Scriptures must be interpreted, and if they fail to cower down to your opinions and views they will be condemnd as having "rejected God".

You are a prime example of precisely why Protestantism is headed nowhere, save for perhaps creating total chaos that has everyone at each others throats accusing each other of "rejecting God" simply because they don't agree with each others interpretations of ancient fables.

I do thank you for being a prime example of this. You have truly driven my point home in this very thread.

You are a perfect example of the kind of hateful monsters that Protestant Fundamentalism creates. You are out to condemn everyone and anyone who refuses to cower down to your beliefs as having "rejected God".

In that way you have stolen the God concept and use it as an excuse to place your own ego on the highest pedestal of divine authority.

You use Protestant Fundamentalism not only to become the Pope, but you even go over the Pope's head and claim to speak the absolute truth of God Himself!

You even reject hell. You reject basic tenets that the Pope supports. Thus you have condemned the Pope himself as being "out of touch with God". Because clearly even the Pope doesn't have the divine knowledge that you possess!

Obviously if you got into an argument with the Pope you'd end up accusing him of rejecting God too since he refuses to agree with what you claim is the correct interpretations of the "Word of God".

Yes Cowboy, you are a prime example of how Protestant Fundamentalism can actually lead to extremely dangerous psychosis on the part of some individuals.

In the meantime, I actually consider that Jesus may very well have been a messenger of the cosmic mind of God. Just as Confucius was, and Lao Tzu, and Siddhartha Gautama, and many others.

So you're lying when you say that I reject God. I simply recognize that the ancient Hebrews were not God, and that Jesus actually refuted the Torah and did not support it.

So your Protestant Fundamentalist Psychosis has gotten the better of you. You really should seek professional help. Maybe try by contacting a Catholic Priest and going to confession and confessing that you have blasphemed against the Word of God by preaching to people that there is no hell.

Then you can at least clear your conscious of your sin of blaspheme.

Don't forget to pray to Jesus too and ask his forgiveness for your self-indulgent power-trip of judging other people and accusing them of having rejecting God.

Tsk tsk on you.

For someone who claims to believe in the biblical account of Jesus you sure don't seem to be very interested in following his advice.

I passed no judgment nor was my comment made on speculations or my own thoughts. You have specifically stated you do not believe in the biblical God. Nor did I say anything hateful. I said not that you were gonna burn in hell, I said not that you were a bad person, I said nothing bad at all. All I said was something that you reinforce every day with your postings.



I have said no such thing nor inferred anything of such. I have stated many times over that if anyone has a different interpretation of certain scriptures to tell me, so we could discuss our interpretations with one another. I never claimed to have absolute knowledge of everything our father has set out before us.



No, I have absolutely no ego. I'm not better then you, nor anyone else. I've said this to many times before. Why do you continuously try to personally insult someone? I have absolutely no divine authority. God is the only one in charge. I'm merely passing along a message he has given us.



With what this quote was directly commenting on, I haven't "interpreted" hell being destroyed. Say specifically hell is thrown into the lake of fire. The pope is nothing special. I might "disagree" with some of the pope's interpretations. We are all equal, no one is greater then another. The pope is nothing more important then even my mail man, the store clerk down the street, or any one else for that matter.



He didn't refute it. He completed all the prophecies inside of it, thus completing the tora, thus finishing it. If something is finished, completed, finalized, has an end. It olds no more power after such has accured, thus Jesus gave us a new covenant between man and God.



I NEVER said there was no hell. I have only said that no man will ever go to hell. Hell was made as a holding place for Satan and his minions. That is all hell is for, all it is used for, and all it will ever be used for.



I judged nothing, I speculated nothing. You have specifically stated in this thread even that you do not believe in the father. You do this when you claim the bible is nothing more then hearsay rumors and so forth. I made no judgment, you confessed to it yourself.

"And our father has. You just refuse to believe it was him and or that he even said it in the first place. Your way of thinking, again, God would have to make an appearance EVERY generation. Why should he have to do as such? Why could the word of him not just pass down from generation to generation?"

You are so busy looking for the footsteps of Jesus (so you can walk them)...

How do you know god has not sent a messenger every generation?

One you might possibly have heard of... Mohamahad...

brought islam. (and then had his message twisted by men 300 years after he came as did Jesus).

You specifically stated in your own words:



I've told you that I reject the Bible as being the "word" of any God. Therefore rejection of the Bible cannot and does not equate to "rejection of God" in that context.

Your total inability to comprehend this very simple concept only shows that you aren't even capable of carrying on an intelligent conversation.

Yes, of course, I reject the false biblical picture of God.

Just like you reject the Greek picture of Zeus as being God.

But does anyone go around accusing you of rejecting "God" simply because you reject "Zeus".

No of course they don't because they realize that you could believe in God via some other philosophical view.

So, in that sense, I'm not "rejecting God" any more than you are.

And so for you to suggest that I do, is nothing short of personal arrogance on your part.

However, if you want to speak about the "Biblical Picture" of God, then YES ABSOLUTELY! Even if that story were true, I would indeed reject that God. But in that case, I would being doing it knowingfully and with certainty. I reject that picture of God because I disagree with the immoral values associated with that picture.

If I thought that picture of God were true I wouldn't then turn around and try to find another picture of the "Creator of the Universe". If one even exists at all.

Yet, that is precisely what I do!

Your extreme inability to comprehend the simplest of concepts actually works out quite well for me because it gives me reason to explain things in greater detail on a public forum, whilst you just illustrate vividly how useless and devoid of reason Christian Fundamental Protestantism can be.

So, yes, I absolutely do reject the biblical fables. No question about that at all. That's a given. But the point you can't seem to comprehend is that I've also shown why that act itself cannot be equated to rejection of "God" where I'm using the term "God" to refer to the creator of the universe (if one even exists), and not to refer to the fictitious characters in ancient fables.

That's right. Plus I'm not even saying that Jesus couldn't have been a message of God. He very well may have been. Maybe his purpose was to help the Hebrews see that the Torah was not the word of God, and unfortunately he just failed in that mission.

If there is an aware cosmic conscious entity I imagine it can and does attempt to communicate through all humans.

Whether such a cosmic mind exists is obviously the greatest mystery of human existence. Many secular atheists are convinced that it does not. In fact, someone once supposedly proved that no such cosmic consciousness was possible. I confess that I did not look into that proof. For one thing it would need to be based on our understanding of both physics and mathematics, and since I'm personally convinced that we do not have total knowledge of either of those realms any so-called "proof" that no cosmic consciousness is possible would necessarily be on shaky and incomplete grounds at best.

On thing I'm personally convinced of is that, if a supreme conscious mind does exist, it wouldn't be dabbling in such petty things as requiring blood sacrifices to pay for sins.

To me, that's material for a barroom gossip mentality, not for a supreme divine consciousness.

If our creator is that lame, then yes, I absolutely do reject the idiot. No question about it. I have no desire to worship an idiot for the rest of eternity. So if there is a choice available to just be terminated and cease to exist, as far as I'm concerned THAT would be "heaven" in this situation!


Oh absolutely!

I want no parts of any "God" who is that gross. From my point of view I wouldn't even label such an entity as "God", I would just label it as a demented sick accident that we'd all be far better off without. Pure atheism would be a better dream than the Biblical nightmare, IMHO.

Rejecting the knowledge of our father, rejecting the history we have of our father, rejecting the laws our father has set out before us and or rejecting that he gave them to us is rejecting our father. Again no speculations, guesses, or assumptions. I worship no book nor does any other Christian. The bible is only as important as the paper it's written on, it's the knowledge inside of the bible that is what's so great and important. The paper those words are written on are not so much important.



Not true. If I had gotten in a discussion like we have with a Greek that holds to these then yes I would state that they were rejecting God if they refused to believe such as you do. Again no judgment made. If you come to a fork in the road, right would be our father in heaven and left would be some false god. If you chose left and rejected going right you would have rejected God. No one would have to "accuse you, judge you, or anything of such on such an occasion". The judgment if one was made would be for someone to say you're gonna burn in the lake of fire for your decision, or something of that nature. I've not accused you of not receiving the gift of heaven or ANYTHING along those lines. I hope I do see you in heaven if I get there.

I could never walk in the steps of Jesus. Jesus was the only begotten child of our father who art in heaven. I could never be as great as Jesus nor would I want to be. I'm not in competition with Jesus. And again Jesus was the only BEGOTTEN child of God, he was not just a messenger.

Blood is life. Without blood there is no life. Blood is the most important substance in the world. Without blood you would die, without blood/protein you would have problems growing the muscles that one would need to live especially in that day and age where it was quite a bit more physically demanding then it is now. People weren't "vegetarians" then. They needed the blood/protein to be strong to survive life. That is why a blood sacrifice is/was seen as so great to our father. It's not a sacrifice less you're giving up something you NEED. And in the end for us all Jesus sacrificed his body, his blood for YOU. He allowed himself to be put through that much pain for YOU.

Without water there is no blood.

Water is life.

APPLES

Without blood, you would have no need for water in the first place.

Blood isn't anymore important than anything else. You'd die without air too.

Mankind's superstitions over blood are material for Saturday night horror flicks.

Besides, I don't care whether it was a bloody crucifixion or a gross suffixation. It makes no difference to me, either one is just as gory and sick far as I'm concerned.

The religion of your choice is just plane sick, as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, how many times do I need to tell you that even if that religion were true I would choose spiritual death. That would be my CHOICE if the religion you support is true.

It wouldn't have anything to do with "Sin" or any desire to "Disobey" or any other such nonsense as your religion claims. It would simply be an intelligent sane choice. I would simply ask this God as politely as I could to please just make like I was never created and don't even create me again.

It would just be a simple polite request.

I don't even care if the God assured me that I've done everything required to enter into his paradise, I would still refuse. Because I want no parts of any God that is as sick as the one you are trying to sell.

It's that simple Cowboy.

You simply don't have a product that interests me.

The God you worship isn't even as nice as my next door neighbor.

In short, your religion reeks of sickness and mental illness. It's just not attractive in the least. It's like something the cat dragged in that has been dead for a very long time. It just fouls the air and has nothing good to offer anyone. It's best to just bury it and hope it doesn't spout anything.