Saved from death. I do trust in God with all my heart. The human race turned away from God with disobedience. God sent his only begotten son so that YOU could have ever lasting life, what more could you ask God to do? It's not out of desperation. No one is desperate for anything. What would there be to be desperate for? Your vein remarks make no sense. You seem to just say them to get under someone's skin. You do it to anger them it seems. Now I could be wrong, just stating my speculation on your remarks a lot of the time. Death is a punishment on us. It is up to each individual if they wish to receive the gift of eternal life.

There is no fear, there is absolutely nothing to fear in this world. And yes God will do the best thing always. But still not sure what you're talking about with the fears, and even insinuating that I explained some fear.

The fear of spiritual death is your fear, not mine.

I have no need to be saved from your fears and your religious paranoia.

We've already discussed this at some length before on several occasions. We have grossly different interpretations of the 'scriptures' that you hold so dear.

You read the scriptures and come away with the idea that everyone is condemned lest they be 'saved'. And you seem to even think that you believe precisely what this entails.

I don't get that from those very same scriptures. And I've pointed this out to you on many occasions before. We are just in total disagreement with what those scriptures have to say, and evidently we're going to just need to agree to disagree on those points because clearly we will never reach a consensus.

You come away with grave paranoia that everyone is in need dire of salvation lest they be condemned to spiritual death. I don't.

I also see no reason to believe that Jesus was "The Christ" or the "Sacrificial Lamb of God". I don't see those as being important things to believe. Evidently you do.

I'm happy with my conclusion that Jesus was a misunderstood Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva.

Now if you fear that this will be the cause of my spiritual death, then this is your fear, not mine

You're the only who is living in fear, even if it's fear for the spiritual demise of another person, it's still YOUR fear!

It's not my fear. It's your fear.

Evidently you don't trust God as much as I do.

I trust that no decent righteous God would be as inept as you seem to believe.

So it's your fear that God could be that inept.

Not mine.

I trust that God would be more intelligent than you are evidently willing to allow God to be.

I can't help you with your fears and paranoia with your religion.

I'm sorry that your religion has you fearing for everyone's spiritual fate. I would suggest that you try to re-read the scriptures with a more optimistic mindset.

That's all I know to tell you.

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

An interesting verse Cowboy. I see you trying to talk sense to these people and you get back talk every time. Maybe you're wasting your time?

"You can lead an atheist to truth, but you cannot make him think!"

To begin with Cowboy isn't even talking with atheists on here. AdventureBegins, Jeanniebean, myself, and others that he has argued with are all spiritual people, we aren't atheists.

The verse that you are attempting to reference wouldn't even apply here. Because the people that Cowboy is arguing with already acknowledge the "Holy Spirit". They just don't agree that the Hebrews have the copyright or patent on the creator of all humanity. Nor are they interested in worshiping Cowboy as the spokesperson for God.

What Cowboy (and many Christians) often do, is scream that God is going to out to get people on a technicality if people don't cower down and worship the ancient Hebrew doctrines as the "verbatim" word of God. And more precisely, as specifically interpreted by them!

And they usually have extremely harsh and pessimistic interpretations.

What we are attempting to express to Cowboy is that we don't view God with his pessimistic view. We simply don't feel that God is as untrustworthy and as unintelligent as Cowboy has come to believe.

Cowboy seems to have an extreme fear that God is going to be condemning GOOD people on mere trivial technicalities.

AB, JB, myself and others trust that God is above such pettiness.

Cowboy roots through the scriptures in an attempt to find verses that he can interpret in the most pessimistic way possible. He takes everything extremely literally and leaves no room for possible errors or misunderstandings, either on his part, or on the part of the actual authors and or translators/transcribers of these ancient stories. When we try to offer him a more liberal optimistic interpretation of something, he quickly runs to try to find verses that he can use to undermine our optimism.

I personally see no value in such a pessimistic approach to spirituality.

His choice to be that pessimistic about God and view God to be such a ruthless and heartless dictator who would condemn people on truly insignificant technicalities, is a choice of his own making.

I would ask you the following questions:

Is there anywhere in the stories of the Biblical cannon where any of authors suggest that such a cannon would some day be constructed using their stories and that everyone must believe in this cannon is the verbatim word of God?

My answer to this question is, "No there isn't." There is no prophecy anywhere in this cannon of stories that actually predicts that such a cannon was ever God's intent.

Is there anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus give prophecy that he would send some guy name Saul or Paul to finish his mission? I'm certainly not aware of any such prophecy. So where is there any reason to accept the writings of Paul as having anything to do with Jesus?

Also, did Jesus himself instruct anyone to write anything down for future generations in his name? I don't believe he did. In fact, according to the authors of the New Testament Jesus said that everything he gave as prophecy would be fulfilled before the current generation that he was speaking live had passed. Jesus himself never wrote anything down for future generations to read!

So the conclusions that Cowboy and other religious zealots are jumping to, truly have no merit outside of a perspective of extreme paranoia where they fear that God is an unreasonable monster who is out to get everyone on petty technicalities.

Their main thesis being that the greatest technical offense would be to refuse to accept the Hebrew scriptures as the infallible verbatim word of God, AND to not accept their own personal pessimistic interpretations of those scriptures!

I personally seen no value in such pessimism and distrust of our creator.

If people want to be paranoid that God is a unrighteous monster who is out to get everyone on trivial technicalities, that's certainly their right. However, to run around screaming "The sky is falling! The sky is falling" is a bit extreme I think.

I just personally don't view God as my nemesis as Cowboy seems to feel that I should.

I read the same scriptures that Cowboy reads. However unlike Cowboy, I don't stop there. I also look at what's going on in all human cultures all over the planet. What I see are a lot of common truths in all spiritual traditions, myths, and philosophies. There are even valuable moral and spiritual lessons to be found in the stories of Greek Mythology. Some of those stories may have been divinely inspired as well, IMHO. That doesn't mean that they need to be taken as verbatim absolute truths. They are simply parables and metaphors used to convey a spiritual or moral lesson. Whether they are divinely inspired or just the thoughts of mortal men is anyone's guess.

Well, I see no reason to view the Hebrew legends and religious folklore any differently. They often contain the very same types of moral values and spiritual lesson as the religious writings of any other culture. However they also contain some pretty nasty stuff that I personally don't believe that came from any God. Like condoning a male-chauvinistic attitude toward woman for example. Or the judging and stoning to death of sinners, and "heathens".

I personally don't believe that those things ever came from any divine source. I also hold that Jesus didn't agree with those directives either. Even the Gospels have Jesus renouncing that kind of behavior. Instead Jesus taught behaviors that are more harmonious with the moral conduct that was taught by other cultures, Buddhism in particular.

So it's my conclusion that much of what's in the Old Testament is totally man-made prejudices and male-chauvinism. I feel that this is a totally reasonable conclusion. Sure their may also be some spiritual insight mixed in with these fables as well, but that doesn't make everything they wrote the "verbatim word of God".

So that's a reasonable assessment IMHO.

Cowboy is screaming that it's his belief that God will condemn me for merely being a reasonable person.

I disagree.

I also agree with the Jews and others, that Jesus did not satisfy the prophecies of a messiah. That's clearly a respectable view in Judaism. So there's nothing extreme about this. Judaism is a perfectly respectable religion even today.

I had also dismissed the idea that God is appeased by blood sacrifices for the atonement of sins. In fact, the bible itself contradicts this notion. In the early going it demands that God requires blood sacrifices for the atonement of sins, and then later in the cannon it has God himself proclaiming that he has no interest in any such thing and asks where the people ever got that idea in the first place. Well, duh. It's the the biblical cannon! Except the problem is that there was no "cannon" at that time, so the author who was asking where people got that idea obviously did not condone the previous stories that are now in the biblical cannon today.

This is just further evidence that these stories were never even meant to be canonized into a single collection of stories in the first place.

When I look at the teachings of Jesus I see the teachings of Buddha.

Moreover I accept these teachings as being rational and basically common sense. Keep in mind that this does not include the teachings of Paul. Paul was not Jesus and as far as I can see Jesus never authorized Paul to speak on his behalf. If a belief in Paul was that important I would think that Jesus would have mentioned Paul in his prophecies which he never did.

So anyway, I see no reason to believe that Jesus was a "sacrificial lamb" of God sent to pay for the sins of mankind. I see no reason to worship the entire biblical cannon as the "verbatim word of God".

These things just aren't important, IMHO.

Now, some of the authors of the New Testament suggest that a belief in Jesus is paramount. They suggest that if you don't believe in Jesus then you are already "condemned". Well, what Jesus was teaching them was that they must do as he suggests if they want to achieve nirvana or heaven. So they took that to mean that a person must believe in Jesus because there would be no other way to acquire and follow his teachings. But that was incorrect thinking.

If you follow the tenets of Buddhism you'll be living precisely as Jesus had suggested. In fact, it's my own personal belief that Jesus himself got his very own wisdom from Buddhism. Otherwise why would these teachings be in such harmony?

So my conclusion is that it is indeed possible to follow the teachings of Jesus without even having ever heard of Jesus. If you stumbled into Buddhism you'd have the very same moral teachings to live by. In fact, there are other spiritual traditions that teach similar moral values as well, such as Taoism and Confucianism, as well as others.

The point is that you only need to live by those moral values, and that was the message of the parables of Jesus.

So there's no reason to go running around with extreme pessimism proclaiming that God is out to condemn everyone on petty technicalities if they refuse to worship the precise pessimistic interpretations of an overly-zealous paper pope.

That's certainly not the message of Jesus.

It's just not a reasonable way of looking at things, IMHO.

Ya know what? I did have some interesting tidbits here to correct your thinking. Maybe help you to make your posting sound better. Perhaps even better your life.

But I just don't want to take the time to correct you. It would just lead to more arguing.

My "Pearls" would be smashed and the arguing would go on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on go on and on and on and on.

But I thank you for taking the time out of your busy life to explain it to a poor selfish B@stard.

I kick myself in the butt all the time for not listening, but the verse that says it best is

Proverbs 23:9

9Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

Exactly! And we see this almost every day on the General religion chat!

You and others correct these people and all they do is argue against it.

So that's the extent of your response?

If people aren't willing to cower down and worship your pessimistic fearful view of God, you then simply root through the book to see if you can find a way to use it suggest that they are then fools?

It's seems to me that all you want to do is either be worshiped as as the self-appointed spokesperson for God, or call people fools for not cowering down to worship your own personal pessimistic view of God.

That's a truly sad view of spirituality and religion if you ask me.

And here I thought you wanted to "uplift" God.

Apparently your far more interested in using your religious dogma as a means of belittling anyone who doesn't accept that YOU speak for God.

This has been the hallmark of how many so-called "Christians" have behaved over the centuries. All they want to do is put other people down in the name of their interpretation of dogma.

Well, I'm sure God is real proud of you son.

No he doesn't. All he does is spread insults to anyone who refuses to cower down to his negative conclusions about God.

If we refuse to cower down to his negative picture of God and his negative interpretations of scripture he then uses the scripture to suggest that we are fools?

But where does it say anywhere in these stories the Cowboy's negative views and interpretations of God must be accepted as the Verbatim WORD OF GOD?

The bottom line is that it doesn't say that anywhere.

Nor does it even remotely suggest anything that could be used to support that view.

I'd be more than happy to hear of any "Pearls" you might have to offer.

But if you're going to preach like Cowboy and just demand that I must obey his negative interpretations of the dogma or be condemned to spiritual death, then I'm not interested in your so-called "Pearls" because I don't view such extremely negative rhetoric as being "Pearls".

If you're going to offer "Pearls" then they should appear as "Pearls" and not the as the waste products of swine.

So if you have any "Pearls" to offer let's hear them.

Who knows? Maybe your "Pearls" would be accepted if they are truly "Pearls".

God is not going to force anyone to believe in him or his word.

It's a choice. I choose to believe in God, His word, and what it says.

That's where the knowledge of God comes from. It comes from the bible. Anything else must be put through the filter of the bible. If what someone says does not match the word of God it is false.

When I see in your posts that you accept what people say. I will offer you my wisdom.

Shinning Armour wrote:

When I see in your posts that you accept what people say. I will offer you my wisdom.


Apparently you already have:



Apparently that's your so-called "Wisdom".

And evidently you aren't prepared to discuss spiritual concepts with anyone who doesn't accept your premise on this extremely limited view of God.

The people on this web site have been extremely kind by offering you a forum devoted entirely to that view.

Some of us prefer to expand our wisdom to encompass the wisdom of all of humanity. When we do this, we see that the biblical account of God is but a mere sliver of knowledge, and many of us fell that there is no reason to consider it as the sole source of God's wisdom. In fact, many of us, including myself do not even recognize the "biblical cannon" as having any such authority.

As I have pointed out many times, the very collection of stories that have been assembled into this cannon, do not even remotely suggest or prophecies that any such cannon would ever be constructed or intended by any God. In fact, I have already pointed out instances where various stories within this cannon of stories do not even acknowledge or support other stories within the very same collection of stories.

So, no. Clearly I do not accept your premise that the Christian cannon of stories represents the "Word of God" and must be used as the ultimate "filter".

No, I definitely do not accept that limited view of spirit.

So, if that's the only so-called "wisdom" you have to offer, then I'm not remotely interested in your so-called "wisdom".

With all due respect, you're just asking me to have a very narrow mind and close my mind off to everything except one small limited view of what a possible creator might be like.

So, no. If that's your "wisdom", then I'm not interested in hearing that view. That's what the "Christian Forums" are for.

I would prefer to hear more generalized ideas about spirit that are open-minded concerning the entire population of humanity.

So, no. I'm not about to "accept" what you have to say, because you are demanding that I limit my views on spirituality dramatically.

I see no value in closing my mind like that to the broader wisdom that's clearly available to me.

I'll consider the Hebrew legends and stories with equally weighted value. That's as far as I'll go in that direction.

Asking me to limit my knowledge and sources of knowledge is simply unacceptable.

Like I say, if you want to consider that view only, then that's what the Christian Forums are for.

And also, I have absolutely no desire to change your mind or views on that.

I'm just not interested in being asked to restrict my views like that or being called a "fool" for refusing to do so.

That's just totally unproductive and I see no positive value in that.

I am sometimes curious about how religious zealots evolve. There are so many different views of Christianity alone, that when I meet one, I never know what amazing things will come out of their mouths and minds. They all say that they get their knowledge from the same book, but that can't be possible. So one has to examine their upbringing and their church to find the source.

In my little town alone there are seven churches. They range from people who speak in tongues and dance in the isles to congregations full of hypocritical business men and women who just come to socialize and gossip.

People argue their religion because they really want to test it. They really have doubts of their own. If they truly believed their own words they would not engage in such conversations where they insult others and say things about how they are not to cast their pearls before swine. Instead of spouting these insults, they should probably just do as they are told and obey their scripture and keep their pearls.

To claim that this kind of argument is not insulting is insulting to people's intelligence. To walk around claiming you are wise is foolish.

Find your peace with God and you will find peace with others.


Amen

Hey you and I have something in common here. But I'm no spokesperson for God, nor do I call people fools for not cowing down to worship my own interpretation or view of God. I'm here to learn and to possibly teach, mainly to learn. More you involve yourself with God and his works more you learn. Life is a learning process. What I know of the bible, may not be entirely correct. I may have my own desire for certain scriptures to mean a certain thing. But that's not the way it should be nor the way I wish for it to be. That is why I congregate in here with others learning more about God and again possibly teaching another. And how many times you gonna keep saying that lie? "cowering down to worship your own personal pessimistic view of God." I have said many times and I will say it again, if someone else has different interpretations on the versus in mention to discuss with me to possibly learn something I did not know. You continuously say I do not do this, which is another lie. I have never once totally disagreed with another Christian without coming to some form of absolutely conclusion, weather it was my original view of the scriptures or learning that I was mistaken and learning the true meaning of a certain scripture(s). The one thing I do know is God is as real as you and I, God is great and loves each and everyone of us. God is true in all things.

I don't pass judgment on your relationship with God.

All I have ever asked from you is to offer me the very same respect.

It's a pretty simple request I would think.

If you want to discuss interpretations of versus, I'm more than open to this. I'll freely offer my interpretations and/or acceptance or non-acceptance of any biblical verse.

And I'm totally open to agreeing to disagree on our interpretations.

You say:


If that's true, I would say that you have been quite fortunate to have only discussed these things with people that you were able to find a consensus with because historically Christians have not been able to come to such a consensus, and this is why the Catholics, and the many various sects of Christian Protestantism exist. They simply can't come to a consensus with each other on many critical points.

Also, if you're only concerned with discussing scriptures with other Christians, then the best place to do that would be in the Christian forums. Why even bother discussing interpretations with non-Christians if you're not interested in the views of non-Christians?

Christian chat doesn't have much conversation in that area. Don't know exactly how to explain it, so please bare with me if it doesn't come out right. Discussing in the general discussion it gives me a specific reasoning to look specific things up. Yes could sit down and think of all kinds of things to look up. But there wouldn't be as much reason to do so. Discussing here makes me look up certain things of which is being discussed. And with it involving other people, that forces me to look deeper into the verses and surrounding verses to make sure I'm keeping them in context as to not spread false testimony.

I do not want your pearls. (I have one of Great Price already).
I do not want your pearls. (Diamonds surround me as small points of Great Light).
I do not want your pearls. (you throw them upon the ground - evidently you think very little of their worth).

You can not lead me anywhere... You wander aimlessly in the weeds... I have a path... and god illuminates it for me.

I drink from a Chalice filled with the Glory of God...

Why then would I want water from the dirt.

I imagine that the Christian chat room just isn't stimulating enough. They all probably just try to get along. Its the Christian thing to do.

I have actually been thinking of going to a local methodist church here in town. Most of the people in town think of me as a witch because of my tarot reading, but the methodist church is mostly a social club I think. I want to get my mom to go with me.

The problem is I can't stand the singing.

I plan to wear my black witches dress of course.