Hi, 'straight' Fundies have been giving me grief, I'm sorta a Earth Based, Native American (I'm Comanche) Christian, Buddhist

Does anyone else understand this, I know it sounds kinda complicated, but when you think about it most medicines are nothing more than synthesized natural things anyways.

I go to a church, but am kinda worried about trying to explain it all to someone who probably doesn't wanna hear it anyways, sucks

yes

Welcome!

And yes, I know what you mean, other then the Christian part. Generally I use eclectic to describe my views, but have been using atheist with pagan/heathen leanings.

All you can truly do is seek out like-minded people. There really isn't much sense in trying to explain anything to people who will do nothing more than become defensive about it. Or worse yet mount an offense against you for your 'weird' ideas (from their point of view).

The key is to never take anything those people say personally. Their ignorance is their problem not yours. They truly aren't responsible for their ignorance, they just don't know any better.

Yeah, I know, arguing with 'fundies' is like mud wrestlin a pig, sooner or later you realize the pig likes it

Just don't discuss it. Your beliefs are yours. However, if you continue to attend a Christian church, you will most likely have to choose between staying and living a lie or leaving the church.

Well, that brings up a very interesting topic that can never truly be discussed with Christian fundies.

For example, let's say that I personally believe in "Jesus". In fact, I do! I do indeed believe that a man named Jesus actually lived, preached better morals than had been taught in the Torah, and was crucified for his views.

So in that sense I may be "drawn" to Jesus. I see the truth in his wisdom, etc. I might even be inclined to believe that it was indeed "divinely inspired knowledge". After all, I believe in shamanism and the validity of shamanic visions. Perhaps Jesus was indeed connected to the spiritual source in a profound way. I have no problem with that at all.

So in that sense, I might be tempted to acknowledge this via "Christianity" which appears to be the religion that supposedly reveres Jesus.

However, I do not believe that the Torah (or Old Testament) represents the "Word of God". Nor do I believe that Jesus ever implied that it does. As far as I can see from the Gospels Jesus renounced many of the moral values that had been taught in the Torah, and he ever referred to the Torah as "Your Laws" when speaking to the Pharisees whom he also decreed to be hypocrites.

I actually see the teachings of Jesus as being far more in line with the philosophical and moral views of Mahayana Buddhism (which as prominent at that point in history).

So I renounce, the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin, I renounce the idea that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the God of the Old Testament used to pay for the sins of mankind, and I personally don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Although he may have made shamanic or spiritual appearances to certain people after his death. That must be left open as a possibility to anyone who believes in shamanism or spiritual communique of any kind.

So this leaves me with a bit of a dilemma.

Do I recognize the wisdom of the moral teachings of Jesus?

Oh absolutely. The moral values he supposedly taught were just common sense from my point of view. And they are in total harmony with the moral teachings of Buddhism which I also agree with. They only thing they conflict with it the previous teachings of the Torah.

So how do I show my support for the teachings of Jesus when the Christians feel that they OWN him? And the fact that they have nailed him to the Old Testament far more tightly than he was ever nailed to the cross.

According to the Christians, it's not sufficient to believe in the moral teachings of Jesus, or to recognize that he may have been aligned with the divine consciousness in some mysterious way (i.e. through spiritual divination and shamanic visions and communique).

But instead the so-called "Christians" are holding Jesus up as the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham who was crucified to pay for your sins!

That isn't what Jesus was all about, IMHO. And I totally renounce all of that.

So the Christians are like the Grinch the stole Christmas.

They are the hypocrites who stole Christ for their own agenda.

Except it's even wrong of me to refer to Jesus as "The Christ", because that's the very notion right there that nails Jesus to the Torah (or Old Testament).

One thing that finally became clear to me is very simple. I asked myself the following two questions:

#1. Do I agree with the moral teachings of Jesus, and do I feel that he may potentially have been divinely inspired. or at least closely aligned with divine consciousness?

Yes I absolutely believe that. I believe that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. He would have been very much in harmony with divine consciousness.

Be the second question is quite different:

#2. Do I believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God who was sent to be crucified to pay for the sins of mankind? Do I believe that he was born of a virgin, supported the teachings of the Torah as the "Word of God", and rose from the dead?

No, I don't believe any of that. In short, I do not believe that Jesus was "The Christ" as the "Christians" claim.

I don't believe the Christian version of the story. And by that, I'm mean that I don't believe the authors of the New Testament for they are the only REAL "Christians". Everyone else who calls themselves a "Christian" is really nothing more than a "believer" in what the original "Christians" (i.e. the authors of the New Testament) wrote.

So do I believe in the Bible verbatim? No.

Do I believe that Jesus was "The Christ"? No.

Do I believe that Jesus even supported the Torah as the "Word of God"? No.

Therefore it would indeed be a lie for me to claim to be a "Christian".

And I think this is true for many people who actually want to follow the teachings of Jesus, but don't necessarily agree with all the other crap that is associated with Christianity.

But yet it's next to impossible (actually is impossible from a Christian point of view), to hold Jesus up as anything other than "The Christ" (i.e. the only begotten son of the God of Abraham).

Anything short of that is heresy as far as the Christians are concerned, because that's what Christianity stands for (the idea that Jesus was "The Christ")

So this leaves people who would like to support the moral teachings of Jesus without having to support the hypocrisy of Christianity with nowhere to turn.

Trying to hold Jesus up as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who actually renounced the teachings of the Old Testament, isn't going to fly in the face of "Christianity".

So am I a "Christian"?

Absolutely NOT!

Do I support the moral teachings of Jesus?

Absolutely.

So I'm betwixt a rock and a hard place when it comes to Jesus.

At least as far as the "Christians" are concerned.

Fortunately for me, I don't give a damn what the Christians think.

Their opinions are the least important thing on the planet.

Ab, I will concede that there very well was (probable, even) that there was a man named Jesus.

I don't buy into his teachings, though, so I guess I don't have the dilemma of even considering that I might be Christlike. In fact, I don't think we even have a clear idea of what Jesus taught and what Paul thought he taught.

The lessons to be learned in the Christian Scriptures are found in most religions--there's certainly nothing new there!

How about How the Chrisgrinches Stole Jesus?

Yes, I completely understand. My personal choice is not discuss it and that's my advice to you. good luck.

I absolutely agree with you Gwendolyn, especially when it comes to the writings of Paul.

I personally don't even consider the writings of Paul to be the "teachings of Jesus". That didn't come from Jesus, that came from Paul! And the vast bulk of the New Testament writings came from Paul.

So yes, I see your point. Most Christians probably do see the whole entire New Testament (including the writings of Paul) as the "teachings of Jesus".

Yes, I absolutely renounce that idea completely. As far as I can see all Paul did was use the rumors of Jesus to dredge up crap from the Old Testament that Jesus didn't even agree with.

So when I say, I agree with the "moral teachings" of Jesus I'm basically speaking about only those teachings that were supposedly attributed directly to Jesus himself. In other word this would be limited to only the four books of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.

And even then I only accept the "moral teachings" that are attributed to Jesus, and not all the hearsay rumors that he was born of a virgin, was the "only begotten son of God", or that he rose from the dead.

So I guess you're right. In the BIG PICTURE of the whole New Testament, I'm not in agreement with very much at all.

And I also agree that all the good stuff can indeed be found in other religions. As far as I'm concerned the moral values that Jesus stood for and taught directly can all be found in various Eastern religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, etc.

It's probably best to just reject the whole Christian doctrine altogether. It's far more 'wrong' than it is 'right'.

So why even bother acknowledging it at all really?

That's a good point.

thanks, pretty much what I thought I should do, but sometimes a outside opinion makes it easier

I have wandered many paths. I was born and raised Catholic and went to a Catholic school. But during HS I began to realize many fundamental flaws in the organization of the church and by college I had stopped going pretty much altogether.

Don't get me wrong, when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, I came out with a fairly solid foundation of right and wrong, how to lead a good life, and all that jazz. But the thing that bothered me the most was the tiny details that people get so caught up on that really aren't that important when you start to think about it.

So I started exploring the other paths that were out there that I never even had the chance to explore when I was a kid. I learned about Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, the Greco-Roman Pantheon, Paganism, Wicca, monotheism, polytheism, pantheism, atheism... I really thought I was onto something with Taoism. The Tao Te Ching really changed my perspective on pretty much everything. It's a short collection of some very potent poems, and it's much more portable than a bible. I'd recommend it to anyone.

I had come to believe in ALL the gods and goddesses, that as long as there was someone to believe in them, then they were real for that person. I simply chose not worship any of them. I do pay homage to Poseidon every once in a while, when you spend as much time at sea as I do, it can't hurt.

But a few weeks ago, I came across http://www.venganza.org/about/ and suddenly all the pieces just fell into place. I didn't become a Pastafarian that day. I realized that I had unknowingly been one all along.

Funny how one is drawn to deities, isn't it? Poseidon calls to me because of the horse. I love the ocean and seas, but don't live anywhere near to it.

Love the Tao Te Ching. Excellent book, and gets flipped through frequently here.