CYCLOPS writes:

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. How can one understand unless one hears and searches to see if these things are so. If not done...there is nothing within but an ignorant ranting. (Ignorant = without accurate knowledge of subject.) "

Yanno, as long as you continue to throw about loaded terms like 'ignorant ranting' in conjunction with your solipsism and circular reasoning, why should I allow you to rent time in my thinking? It's clear you've already made up my mind for me in your mind, and I'm supposed to genuflect to your philosophy so I might be wise in your eyes?

Ahem.

-Kerry O., "I drank what?" -Socrates

Eljay,

Since you came to play with us unrepentant agnostics, I'd like to attempt an experiment in memetic engineering:)

I think part and parcel of the way agnostics intuit religion is that of the agnostic 'breaking the fourth wall' when confronted with contradiction arising from too much deus ex machina.


-Kerry O.

Ignorant ranting = orating without knowledge on a subject.




I don't care what you do or what you believe. I do care that you lead others to unsound thinking with your vomiting of ignorance.


Do I need to explain that statement also. I won't bother.

I have no issue with you. Go in peace.

Cyclops writes:

"I don't care what you do or what you believe. I do care that you lead others to unsound thinking with your vomiting of ignorance."


Do I need to explain that statement also. I won't bother."


Nono, it speaks volumes. Especially in a thread started BY an agnostic FOR the discussion of agnosticism.

"I have no issue with you. Go in peace."

Oh, I think you have BIG issues with uppity agnostics and atheists who don't know their place. That's why you're here, in this thread, using words like 'vomiting' and 'ignorance'. You're trying to shout down anyone who doesn't subscribe to your belief system and has the temerity to tell you so. You can't stomach (oops, bad pun) any reasons they might have, and you're not stopping to listen, just offering up more hostile ad hominem attacks the more you're confronted.

Hardly peaceful, in my opinion, nor loving. But then, neither was the genocide in the Old Testament so many militant Christians have no ethical qualms about. See, it's these contradictions that I had to get away from before they made *me* crazy trying to analyze them.

-Kerry O.

Kerry-O;

I too had the same experience you had as a 5 year old. Mine however was involved in Catholicism - as opposed to Born agains.

But is it that your issue is with Religion - or God?

lj

Eljay,

In as much as most people conflate the two and seem utterly unable (or unwilling?) to decouple one from the other, I doubt my perspective will make much sense.

When Einstein was working on his General Theory of Relativity, he found that classical math was not robust enough to be used in the construction of the mathematical proofs of that which he felt intuitively. So, he turned to Riemannian Geometry, which was as cutting edge at the time as his work.

Likewise, I needed a new math, as it were, to puzzle over the concepts of human interaction with the Universe and the ethics that govern our interaction with each other. Religion seemed to me to be such a dicey proposition, and one that all too often was used to rationalize the fruits (often poisonous) of human narcissism raised, quite literally, to the ultimate power. I can cite examples, such as slavery and its perpetuation, to lend credence to this interpretation.

From the Matrix Trilogy:
"Morpheus: After everything that has happened, how can you expect me to believe you?
Oracle: I don't. I expect what I have always expected. That you will make up your own damn mind. Believe me or don't. All I can do is tell you that your friend is in trouble and he needs your help. He needs all our help."


Substitute 'the human race' for 'friend', and _that_ Eljay, will give you a small sample of my agnosticism as it informs upon my views and difficulties with and about religion.

Now. God? There's quite a different story. I'd suspect that the Universe being some Petri dish in a superchild being's fifth grade science project is as good an explanation as any. (And that the human race is just a group of HeLa cells overunning the *real* experiment...).

So, how about a perspective on that 'breaking the fourth wall' thought experiment?

-Kerry O.

KerryO - been watching you, everyone here, but havn't had much time to play.

Just had to to tell you how eloquent your last post was. I so love the way you use words, I wish I could paint with the written word as well as you.

Kerry-O;

Well - suffice it to say that it has been many many moons since I've had to raise my level of thinking to just absorb what it was you said! But I'll play Karloff to your Lagosi.

"I think part and parcel of the way agnostics intuit religion is that of the agnostic 'breaking the fourth wall' when confronted with contradiction arising from too much deus ex machina."

I'm not quite sure how you menat this - but is the unexpected hero of the day creating that much disturbance to have an effect on how an agnostic interprets "Religion"? Enough to address the audience and break rhythm and concentration? But surely you know that the conflict is in the drama on the stage - is it not?

...What's that tap tap tap on my window pane...

Eljay,

Well, I was hoping for Godel, Escher and Bach, but getting Karloff, Lugosi and Poe in return? Is that how you really view interactions with agnostics and agnosticism, as some sort of Jack T. Chick noir? One of his claims to fame is attacking Catholicism by smuggling the idea into his tracts that it's some sort of deep, dark and evil conspiracy,in attempts at poisoning the well by going for the reader's subconscious.

-Kerry O.

I wold have brought our discussion into the realm of Beckett and Ionesco - but I'd prefer to leave such things for our future discussions. I look forward to your idea's on "No Exit" as well. I was just reminded of the image from the Raven in my youth - assuming (quite correctly I guess) that you would immediately know the reference. Seems we went to two different high schools together - you and I. And it also appears that we have crossed path's many a time in our life long search of what is and what isn't.

lj

The only answer to a civilized world if honesty and real truth are exercized is Jesus. Regardless what you decide to believe the truth will remain. When its all said and done and we take our last breath those with or without Christ will face the truth.

Eljay,

A JSH presentation of 'Waiting for Godot', where Vladimir and Estragon meet Eljay and Kerry O? :) Beckett would never forgive us.

I suppose the reason I haven't I.D.'d as an atheist for years is that I still have this soft spot in my heart for folks like the Religious Society of Friends (better known as the Quakers). They've known persecution for much of their history, yet they still believe and channel their individualistic rendition of God to smile through them and their altruistic good works and humanist bonhomie. I note with admiration their outstretched hands in stark constrast with those of the Lawgivers, who waggle their fingers at *my* individualism, and am almost moved to join them.

But I can't, seductive as it may be. Too much has happened, things which can't be undone, hard-gained knowledge which can't be forfeited in a moment of catharsis. My karma lies on a different path, and I don't begrudge others for theirs.

But oy, sometimes it's hard to avoid the highwaymen....

-Kerry O.

look at a tree, then duplicate it using a chemistry set. Youll eventually realise that a higher power must have made it.

>> look at a tree, then duplicate it using a chemistry set. Youll eventually realise that a higher power must have made it.

A power higher than a man with a chemistry set, yes!

But what does the tree tell us about the nature and qualities of that 'higher power'?

well. compared to us, this creator is so far beyond what we can comprehend for one thing. i would say this would be someone to listen to.

God on my terms.

One can often wander whether God is real and look for signs in the earth and in the heavens. the only true test of God is faith.

what do I mean when I say faith? Do you believe that the sun will rise in the morning? You do realize that it might not. One day the sun might not rise in the morning. but most of us have faith that it will. We believe it with all our hearts.

The same is required for God. I was raised in pentecostal, but not snake handling, or drinking poisons. I believe these things are just testing God. Just like when Satan led Jesus up to the top of a mountain and told him "If you really are the Son of God, then jump off. It is said in the scriptures that He will not suffer your foot even to be bruised on the rock below." I forgot Jesus' response, but needless to say, he didn't jump. He had nothing to prove. He had faith and knowledge enough not to take a flying leap of a cliff. That's what I think about it anyway.

The scriptures say to have works with faith otherwise your faith is dead. Works are anything that you do according to your faith. Ex. You plan your vacation on a day that the forecaster says will be sunny. Your planning and going on vacation is works toward your faith in the forcaster's prediction.

A reasonable work towards faith in God might be; You come across someone who needs money for a tow or something like that. You remember that God said you should be kind to others and considerate. Therefore, you give him a twenty and even let him use your cell to call for a tow truck. That would be an example of putting works to faith. Nothing complicated. God really isn't complicated.

Okay, I'm done writing. Maybe I'll preach to y'all later!!1
Until then, Reverend out!!!! Peace!!!!

Ok, I have read through this entire thread. Everyone has a point, but even though I have my own beliefs, the only thing I can come up with that might, and I say "might" not be offensive is this joke. If you want to call it that. Since most of you either believe in a higher power, God, Jesus, or even if you don't know, whatever.......here we go:

A scientist is sitting next to God (or whomever you worship)and says, we no longer need to worship you. We can create life by ourselves. God answers, oh really? Prove it. The scientist starts the make a figure in the dirt to make it come to life, and God says, Whoa! Wait a minute. Make your own dirt!

We are what we are, and we believe what we believe, hopefully that will not mean that anyone else will look down on or insult the other.

peace, ok?

Creationsfire,

Google up 'designer rats' for what's going on in bioenengineering and genome research. It's still in its infancy.

I just get tired of belaboring the point about One God, One Word with people who just insist that I simply must see it their way because *they* believe something I don't. Throw in the subtext that it offends their faith because if it's good enough for them, its should be good enough for me, I'm ready to politely (of otherwise if necessary) excuse myself and head for the exit.

Just my opinion, but scientists and engineers have done more for the human race in the last 100 years than priests and their ilk have done in the previous 5000. Life in the Middle Ages, when religion, hand in hand with monarchs ruled by this One God's largesse? Anyone? Yes? No?

I didn't think so.

But then, I'm presenting you with the same false dichotomy folks like Rambill are presenting me. See how it works?

-Kerry O.

ohhhhhhhhh, kerry, come on man! It wasn't meant to be taken literally......I thought I made that clear.

You are so used to having to defend yourself that you are preaching to the chior dude.......

There is a time and a place for science and for whatever religion you or anyone else may or may not be a part of, believe in or other wise....

I'm not stupid enough to try to argue with you. You are abviously more well read that I am, and that is not sarcasim.......

lighten up