It means that at one point, there was absolutely nothing. To believe that all matter "appeared" out of nothing is delusional, don't you think?
Once you get past that magical moment when matter first appeared, then even at great odds, natural evolution is possible.

Where do YOU think all matter came from?

If god has no will, then by the extension of that logic he has no desires. Therefore, he no will to see whether your wish fulfilment is granted. Your happiness or joy or "clean living" meas nothing to the diety. You as a person would be no more than a cosmic punchline to god's joke, his "watching" being no more than for entertainment.

Your arguement also says that god has no "plan" at all. If this is true, then he has no "plan" to take care of you after this life either.

If you are not praying for egoist purpose or praise of diety, then you are just shouting into the wind. If the diety in question has no "plan" to help, you are doing the same. Either way, god aint listening and your answers will be determined more by your own merit, than any "divine intervention."

Tell, you what. Go to the local hospital's cancer ward and pray for someone for their health. Wait six months and give me the results. I'll do nothing for someone in a hospital here. I bet the results will be the same.

With all due respect I hold different views on all of your opinions here.

First off, you need to understand the difference between "religion" and "spirituality" and how in-the-end, they are inseparable albeit different.

For example I was quite spiritual as a very young child. I believed in a supernatural 'god', not because any adult told me that one existed but simply because I knew it to be so innately, or intuitively, if you like. And since I believe in a 'god' that automatically places my 'belief' into the category of 'religion' by default definition.

So your claim #1 simply doesn't fit with my life's experience. My own personal experience has proven the falsity of your original premise, at least as it applies to me. For you, things may be quite different, and I'll grant you that much. But you are totally out of line placing your experiences and assumptions about life in general onto me.

Secondly, your postulate #2 presumes that a person needs to believe in 'god', and doesn't merely believe because they feel it's true. A belief that our true nature is ultimately spiritual in no way implies that a person is weak or needs a crutch to get through life. It's simply a reflection of what they genuinely believe.

Now I will grant you that many people may indeed claim to 'believe' in a god or religion simply because thy feel peer pressure from society to do so, or perhaps they do need a crutch, that may certainly be true in many case, (possibly even in the bulk of cases), but it still doesn't make it true in all cases.

I don't need for life to be spiritual, I just truly believe that it is. So that negates your claim #2 and once again that claim does not apply to me personally.

You state: "The most courageous act is still to think for yourself. Aloud"

I do think for myself, and I do voice my views and opinions publicly without hesitation. I don't need to be an atheist to do that. I can be a spiritual person and do that just fine, thank you.

I also have scientific reasons that even support my innate intuitive belief in spirit, and I'll be posting those momentarily in response to a comment made by MIghtyMoe, so keep an eye open for that post which should be up here fairly soon.

I did not say God had no will. You did. I said it was God's will that we have choice.

I did not say that God did not have a plan. Although I don't believe that there is a predetermined script and no plan is needed.

You are wrong about prayer. Praying in and of itself is a meditation capable of elevating the state of the person who is doing the praying. Divine intervention is not required.

It has been scientifically shown that visualization of healing and faith and loving support positively impacts the outcome of people who are ill. So it has been demonstrated that prayer is in fact helpful for the sick. Go look it up. It is possibly related to the placebo effect but exactly how spiritual support helps the body heal is still poorly understood. That spiritual support does in fact help sick people is a demonstrated fact.

I'll tell YOU what. Goto yahoo and do a search for "spontaneous remission of cancer university studies". Then if you believe that it actually happens, go find some personal stories about it.....

MightyMoe Wrote:


What you say is actually only true if you limit yourself to an extremely shallow philosophical view of life. And that limited view is one where you imagine that the laws of physics, and the physical universe are all that determine anything.

Consider a broader philosophical picture. There may be far more to physics than meets the eye. Science does nothing more than describe the behavior of an existing physical universe. Scientists simply make observations of what's happening, and then they describe them in mathematical ways. But science has absolutely no clue why the laws of physics even adhere to mathematical precision.

Consider the words of Stephen Hawking, "What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?"

Can science tell us anything at all about the true nature of reality? According to the most successful theory of science itself the answer has been mathematically proven to be, "no'. The very laws of Quantum Mechanic forbids our scientific observational method of inquiry from penetrating into the real secrets of the universe.

Here's a question to ponder. "Does reality end with the physical?"

I say no, it does not. I can base this on known science, and it also supports my innate intuitive feeling that there is something far deeper going on. I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way. Eastern Mystics have voice this view for eons.

Consider what science has to say about this:

Well, unfortunately even scientists often hold up differing opinions. For example, I've heard biologists who claim that it's meaningless to speak of information without considering a physical form to support its existence. This is an Aristotelian view that was supported by Aristotle and others. Physical form gives rise to information, therefore without physical form its meaningless to even speak of 'information'. Armed with this philosophical view many modern biologists take this to the ultimate conclusion. We are nothing more than an 'emergent property' of form. Therefore when our bodies die, we die, because, in essence, we cannot be anything other than the physical form which we arise. Therefore this is an atheistic view of life. We come into being at birth, we cease to exist at death, and that's because, from this purely physical view of information biologists demand that there is 'nowhere else' for us to go or reside in spiritual form. They claim that it's utterly meaningless to speak of 'information' existing in a non-physical form.

However, modern physics does not support this popular view held out by biologists. Physicists have recognized that there is something far deeper involved in the manifestation of physical form. In fact, the most popular and successful theory of all of science, Quantum Mechanics, demands that information must exist beneath the facade that we experience as the physical world. In fact, modern Information Scientists are actually using this truth in technological ways. It's a fundamentally proven and observed property of the universe in which we live.

Allow me to summarize. Modern science has revealed via physics that some form of information must necessarily exist beneath the realm of what we typically refer to as the "Physical World".

Therefore the modern view of biologists who claim that we cannot be anything other than an 'emergent property' of physical form isn't iron clad. On the contrary, through physics we have ample reason to believe that forms of non-physical information must indeed exist. At least in the sense of being non-physical with respect to what we normally think of as physical.

This then begs the question of which came first? Form, or Information?

If modern Quantum Physics is true, then perhaps information pre-exists physical form. This also provides a place where "information" can continue to exist even without the need for physical form. In other words, the modern physics provides a scientific and logical place where a so-called 'spiritual' (or non-physical) world can indeed reside. (i.e. in the quantum fields that give rise to physical reality in the first place)

Now having provided this prerequisite philosophy, this prepares me to offer my answer:

I believe that we are all a facet of a grand mystical consciousness. A non-physical mind that can give rise to physical form. A 'god' if you will. Our physical bodies are manifestations of this eternal mind. Our true essence and consciousness is an aspect of this eternal mind. Therefore when our physical bodies die and transform back into the dust of the earth. Our consciousness returns to the eternal flame of this spiritual non-physical cosmic consciousness, free to dream again.

So in this sense, life is but a dream. And we are the eternal cosmic dreamers.

There is nothing in science that forbids this scenario, and Quantum Mechanics even points to a realm where such a "spiritual world" can indeed exist.

Now you speak in terms of luck and chance. And I agree that this physical universe does indeed evolve along those lines much like tossing dice. God does indeed toss dice, there's no question about that. Our creator is a gambl'in God. But She knows the odds! She knows what can and cannot come up on Her dice!

Just as when you roll dice, you may not know precisely what number will come up, but you know what the possibilities are. You don't you can't roll less than a 2, more than a 12, or get anything other than a whole number between these. So when you roll the dice you are never surprised by the outcome, even though you yourself cannot predict precisely what number will actually come up on any given roll. This is how God throws dice. She knows what the possibilities are, but doesn't try to control the outcomes. Clearly humanity was a possible number on the cosmic dice. But there are many other possible numbers as well.

This is how I think of spirituality and God. I don't believe in the Western Christian view of an egotistical judgmental Zeus-like personified God who condemns people who refuse to obey him, or who sends his only begotten son to be nailed to a pole to pay for the sins of many. That story is as utterly stupid as the story of Santa Claus. It's clearly a man-made myth.

However, there do exist far deeper and wiser views of spirituality along the lines of Eastern Mysticism. One problem with those philosophies is that they are indeed quite philosophically profound and many humans simply aren't capable of dealing with this kind of depth of thought.

But consider this, if the universe itself is truly awesome, then how much greater must be the place from whence it came?

If spirit exists, it's going to be far beyond the comprehension of any mortal being. That's a given.

You may want to check out the writings of the historian Josephus before making the claim that Jesus may not have lived.

The Bible (which you call "myth") has some interesting and thought provoking things to say concerning your viewpoints; here's just a sample:

"The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no God'...." Psalm 53

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

"This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (Words of Jesus recorded by John in John 3:19-20)

You claim that Christianity is based on "fear" but I think you may want to consider the role fear may be playing in your refusal to be honest before God and acknowledge your need for a Savior.

On the cross, Jesus took upon himself the judgment we deserved for our sin so that we can live life free from all fear and judgment. You are sorely mistaken....the center of the Christian faith is grace extended to us through the finished work of Jesus Christ, not fear.

Yet if you insist on rejecting God's plan of salvation and want to become the source for your own truth and play God, then you have every reason to fear.

You have need and personal weakness, although you may not have been aware of it. You're a sinner in need of a savior. When you look at your life in the light of God's moral law (the 10 commandments...His standard, not your own) which your God given conscience bears witness to, you're no different than anyone else.

The good news is that God's grace is available to you as it is to everyone; For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him would not perish, but have eternal life; for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him would be saved..." John 3:16

God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth..... (1 Timothy 2:4)

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the father but by me..." (john 14:6)

The choice is yours.

i haven't a clue. the universe is to big to even guess. but i find it hard to believe that there was nothing at one point. i also find the big bang theory inconsistent. atoms do not change, as far as i know. subatomic particles are pretty consistent too. maybe matter might have been a different form, but i don't think there was ever just nothing.

i agree with you. i won't rule out any possibilities.
scientist learn more everyday. whatever started that very first spark of life is still beyond what we know know.we may never know.
but that won't stop people from trying to figure it out.
there may not be a beginning to the universe. not as what we know anyway.i'm not comfortable with the big bang theory, i think it was something else. maybe there is no scientific explanation, but my gut says there is.

I appreciate your views. I would just like to share a few more observations.

1) Concerning the idea that science might actually find an ultimate explanation.

Well, that might be true. I would never try to claim otherwise. However, I would like to point out the following truth:

The best and most consistent theory of science to date (Quantum Mechanics) predicts that we can never learn anything more than we already know about the nature of the quantum field. This is innate within the mathematical theory itself via the principles of complementarity as Niels Borh calls it, or the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (if you want to get mathematical about it).

Therefore, to go beyond Quantum Mechanics requires that the theory itself breaks down and fails.

Now, I'm not about to claim that it can't break down and fail. It most certainly may do so. However the major point to this is that there is no scientific reason to believe that this should be the case.

In other words, to believe that we can ever go beyond what Quantum Mechanics can tell us about the nature of reality is an act of pure faith that has no foundation in science.

And that's ok. But I find it to be quite ironic that many people tend to claim that they are being logically consistent with science to suggest that we might some day know more than QM says we can know.

That's simply not the case. To believe such a thing is to believe that current science (i.e. QM) will actually turn out to be false.

So that belief in and of itself is an act of pure faith that has no current basis in science.

None the less, I do agree with you that we should continue to try. Maybe QM will break down. Who knows? I love science myself and I'm all for probing for more answer as long as we possibly can. But then I tend to have 'faith' in a lot of things.

2. The only point that I am trying to make is that until QM breaks down there does indeed exist a plausible scientific 'place' where non-physical information can indeed exist.

Of course that's a far cry from proving anything 'spiritual'. I'll be the first to confess that. But it makes the question of which came first "Form or Information" a much more exciting and intriguing question.

If information preexists physical reality, then surely it can also post-exist it as well.

In other words, a philosophical ideology that suggests that our truest essence is non-physical spirit, then the idea that we are 'dreaming' our physical form rather than being a consequence of it, begins to become a real possibility.

Of course, we could be just a freak accident too. I won't deny that.

We most certainly ACT like freak accidents so that loans a whole lot of merit to that theory. You'd think that if we're some sort of eternal spirits just dreaming to have physical form we'd be far wiser than we are.

I will grant you that this factor alone gives atheism a whole lot of weight!

However, I think it must be assumed that if we are eternal spirits we somehow chose to become naive and ignorant when we manifest in physical form. Maybe that's required for some reason, or it would just be too boring if we came into the dream already knowing everything. Maybe we become ignorant on purpose because discovering new things and learning everything anew is what makes the dreams fun. Take away that 'newness' and the dreams become boring because we already fully understand what's going on.

In any case, my point is that a spiritual existence as described by the Eastern Mystics has some real possibility even within the confines of what we know through modern science.

Our scientific knowledge, doesn't truly point to atheism at all. It just points to the fact that we can't know the true nature of our essence. But it leaves the door wide open for a place for spiritual information (a spiritual world) to exist.

Savior from what?

The judgmental wrath of God himself?

That's an oxymoron.

In order for Christianity to be true quite a few things would need to be true.

1. It would need to be true that our 'souls' are created at birth.

It would need to be true that we are basically 'created' or come into being at birth as a spiritual entity via a physical body.

There is a myriad of problems with this scenario alone. Not the least of which is the fact that God himself would have very little control over the creation of souls. Humans decide on whether or not to have children and often times those "decisions" aren't even based on family planning, but are rather just the aftermath of uncontrolled and irresponsible acts of lust.

I personally chose not to have any children. I didn't want the responsibility of bringing life into this godforsaken world. Therefore I chose to NOT create a human soul. In that sense that makes me God. At least just as much so as someone who actually chooses to have children. And I'm not sure where that leaves the irresponsible people who just have babies because they were horny.

The problem with a 'creator' who 'creates' souls via such a haphazard process is immense. Especially if he's then going to turn around and pass judgments on their behavior and beliefs!

Such a God isn't taking care to assure that all his children have proper loving, caring, and mentoring parents. Such a method of 'creation' is totally irresponsible.

2. If we believe in spirit, then why bother just believing in spirit in one direction only?

If our true essence is spiritual then we are all probably eternal. Not only do we live on after death, but we have always existed even before we were born. Why limit it to a one-way philosophy?

3. If God is so judgmental and is such a threat to us that we need a 'savior' to save us from his wrath, then WHY,...

Why would God have permitted men to write books of hearsay to convey his directives and demands? Why ask people to place their faith in the hearsay of other mortals when their very eternal existence is at stake?

Even Jesus never wrote anything down himself. Here we supposedly have an example of God walking among us in the flesh and he doesn't even bother to write anything down????

He must not have felt that he had anything very important to tell us if he left it up to mere mortal men to repeat his words as hearsay decades later.

The story just doesn't wash. This would be a God who treats our eternal 'salvation' as though it isn't even worth of his honest effort to assure that we get HIS WORD directly from HIM.

That simple fact right there is more than enough reason to toss the whole thing out as being a total farce as far as I'm concerned.

A God who doesn't truly care enough to do things RIGHT?

God supposedly spoke to a crowd when Jesus was being baptized by John, saying something like "This is my son in whom I'm well pleased", or something to that effect.

So God can speak to crowds and that's the best he can do?

And there is NO HISTORICAL ACCOUNT anywhere outside of the Biblical gospels that back up this event. Why would God have even bothered to speak to just a handful of people who aren't even impressed enough to report the experience?

If a judgmental God is capable of speaking to people AND he feels compelled to WANT them to know his wishes, then why hasn't this God spoken to me or you, or anyone else?

Such a God could [n]not blame me for not believing that the Bible is his word. On the contrary he would need to give me an award for being so wise as to not easily fall for hearsay baloney.

And that brings me to the most important point of all.

4.) What kind of a God would punish people for not believing in something that they honestly and sincerely see as being utterly stupid and insane?

In order for your Christianity to be true, your God would need to be punishing decent wholesome righteous people simply because they didn't believe in an archaic collection of stories that often make God out to be an utter idiot.

You even confessed in a post a while back that you, yourself, have some serious problems with the Old Testament.

Well?

How can a God expect people to buy into such nonsense?

Such a picture of God either can't be true at all,...

OR

That God is far from righteous and just.

There is nothing just or righteous about being mean to people just because they didn't believe in an ugly insane picture of God.

That would be like you child being given a picture of an insane madman and refusing to believe that it's a picture of you. Then you become angry with the child for not believing that you could be a insane madman. That doesn't even make any sense.

I don't believe in a creator who would be upset with me for not wanting to believe that he's a complete and utter fool.

Moreover, if a creator did become upset with me for not wanting to believe such a thing, he would only prove that he is indeed a complete and utter fool.

A God who get's peeved at people for not wanting to believe in what they see as a completely fabricated man-made religion would be an insane God.

Salvation cannot possibly be dependent upon "belief". That very notion is an insane notion right there.

Christianity is all about the after life.A person on this earth can go through life rich,successful,happy,and everything else with out ever talking to Christ.Science isn't going to do anything for you in the afterlife neither is Islam,Buddhism,and any of the other religions.All your fame,money,and possessions won't help you a bit.That is why in the history of this World God and Christ are known by everyone and the billions who have passed away are forgotten.

When I hear statements like this I can fully understand and sympathize with the atheists who suggest we should just dump religion altogether.

Religions that breed this kind of arrogance are quite detrimental to humanity in general and have nothing positive or constructive to offer anyone.

Can you imagine how different the Internet would be if theolgians had developed it instead of scientists? For one, you can just bet that atheists would have been denied access. And if you think the proselytizing is bad now...


-Kerry O.

Well, theologians wouldn't have been able to get it up and running in the first place, so it's a moot thought.

If there were no scientists and all that existed were theologians we'd still be living in caves or castles made of rocks, and people would still think that plagues were being caused by an angry God. We wouldn't even have telephones much less an Internet.

Father Fox Mulder: But Sister Scully, Net Neutrality is obviously a secular heresy. I'm sure that when God gave Al Gore the idea for what was to become the Internet, he intended it to be an extension of Holy Writ.

Sister Scully, giving Father Fox a 'God Give Me Strength' expression: Yes, but isn't that itself a 'Free Will' heresy? If Anyone is no longer forbidden to say Anything, isn't free will reduced to a mere Deus Ex Machina construct? Not to mention having to repeal doctrine proscribing thought crimes? There'd be no way to enforce them with all the anonymity!

Father Mulder: Ha! There's still no escaping the Calvinistic aspects of all this! And, we always have the Eternal Log Files. You know what they say-- 'The Internet Never Forgets.'

Just then the Cigarette Smoking Priest walks in.

Cigarette Smoking Priest: You mean you _had_ the Eternal Log Files. Seems there were a few hard disk failures in one of the RAID arrays... ::: he drifts away under a cloud of smoke

Father Mulder shaking fist at the departing Cigarette Smoking Priest's back: Someday you'll slip up, Cancer Man!!

Sister Scully: I SOOO want to believe. Especially that part.

:)

Kerry O.

Thank you Lord, for such a GREAT storm last night and for answering my questions. It was great talking with you.
I so pity those who have no idea that you exist and only wait for one to reach out into your universe to converse.

wishfull thinking... for most religious people, if it doesn't glorify god, it is not worth messing with. thats why science was held back for so long.

like god would care if it rained last night at your place...lol

Oh my dear, you are QUITE mislead, God DOES care. PRAYER works, only if you work it.
You are not tuned in to God, or you would Know **exactly** what I am talking about. God DOES answer, I've been having conversations with the Universe for quite some time and answers come, immediately or not.