metalwing:

I hope your aware of the fact you won't be able to enjoy it -- somebody else will,

P.S. And thanx for the compliment (i.e. email)!!

Ahhh ... but the brief life of a BBQ rib would fill someone with joy so I would get to experience that moment. I might even get to hear some juicy gossip! The whole reincarnation process would start and end quickly so I could go on to the next level (pie perhaps?). That process seems to beat crawling around a desert for fifty years as a turtle until being run over by a car.

I'll take dessert over desert any time.

metalwing:


For that purpose (i.e. juicy gossip, etc.), considder reincarnating into a CLITORIS!!! -- lasts longer and a lot more sensational!!!

I am someone who passionately believed in Reincarnation, read T. Lobsang Rampa's books, everything from Edgar Cayce. I loved the results found from Hypnotic Regression.
But I have always been MORE enthralled with factual reality. I studied all those things, and learned that, just as in politics, you have to be vary careful who exactly is providing the "facts" supporting a premise. Historians are trained to check ORIGINAL SOURCES of factual claims, and to seek out COMPLETE transcriptions of conversations, and of episodic occurrences. When I looked carefully into Hypnotic Regression, reading COMPLETE transcripts, I discovered that in almost every case, the person conducting the interviewer of the Hypnotized person actually LED the person into the claims they made. In all cases I was able to look at, the "facts the hypnotized person gave, which could not have been known to them before," were not facts at all. They were either logical extrapolations of the scenario suggested by the hypnotist, or were obviously derived from movies the person had seen. In some cases, known FICTIONAL situations were described by the hypnotized person as having been real occurrences in their past life.
So I side with Massagetrade for much of this.
As it happens, I ALSO have personal direct experience with some things that are currently categorized along side so-called 'psychic phenomena. Thus, I also retain an open mind about these things, again in the way Massagetrade describes. I do believe that SOME things now thought to be delusions, will be recognized as real, and explained by known physics in the future. I know from direct experience that a certain amount of "reading another's thoughts" DOES happen. I suspect it's a result of the physics and biology of the way brains function, and not a "magical" power at all. In fact, that one can not "read thoughts" on demand, fits right in with the physics that I believe are inherent in it's occurrence.
My own take on the SUM TOTAL of all such, is a practical approach: I neither discard, nor embrace anything, unless circumstances DEMAND that a decision be made. Even then, I reserve the right to change my mind if the facts change. Thus, as regards Reincarnation, I will NOT rearrange my entire life to cope with an IMAGINED future life, or past life. On the other hand, as soon as I die, if presented with the opportunity, I will absolutely come RIGHT ON BACK for another go.

I've seen some of that, too. And then its like the telephone game, the messages gets distorted by Believers on down the chain; books are published with grossly misleading statements being made (with foot-notes, even!), and hardly anyone every checks the original source. People eat it all up - and once you've seen that happen once, you know better than to take any such book & avid fans seriously without investigating it thoroughly yourself.




And don't forget that the data is cherry-picked. How many stories are told which prove that the person was not sharing a past life memory, which end up being ignored? Lets only look at the stories which prove our pre-determined outcome.



Well, if you are in the same room with them, of course you can read their thoughts. Their thoughts are indirectly reflected in millions of nerve signals effecting the muscles of their body; dilating irises, flaring nostrils, closed mouths, opening fingers, shifting balance, movement of eyebrows, lowering shoulders, changing angle of neck, change in respiration rate. Different people have different degrees of ability to notice these things, and different degrees of ability to interpret them, and different degrees of familiarity with the other person's mind....so I'd expect a wide range of ability to read people's minds, and for most people who do it, to do it subconsciously. Also, I don't discount that secretions from our sweat glands might provide chemical messaging between humans.

To me, the interesting question is whether and how people might read minds when they are truly isolated from all such visual, auditory, and chemical communication. Again, so far the evidence is pathetic, but a lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

Exactly! Just because you haven't had a chance of experiencing "something" doesn't mean that "something" is nonesence!
15 years ago I was lucky to be involved with a real Hypnotist -- a medical PhD student at that time. (Haven't had a better relationship ever since!) I mean the guy knew my every whim!!! He could read my (and other's) mind from another room. Obviously, there was a limit to that ability: he could only patially read mind from outside the building (not to mention the other part of city -- as the "Remote Viewing" proponnents are currently insisting is possible).
As far as hypnotising our friends, he's never planted any suggestions in their minds -- that would undermine his exploratory purpose!
In medical practice, he used the hypnosis only for curing patients of various psychological ailments, such as stattering, hysteria, fears, etc. -- that oten required Regression because some of those problems stemmed from the childhood -- (even a sexual inconsistency, i.e. "premature ejaculation"). Such sessions had to be performed under special conditions -- secluded quiet room, no interruptions, etc.

Really gifted people are way above the petty wordly fuss -- they have no desire for publicity, recognition, public admiration, etc. He's never displayed his talent on a dare: he was confident in his abilities and thus extremely concientious. In fact, such people are asked to sign certain papers that restrict exercising their talents in everyday life. In fact, he never had to resort to any kind of tricks because he's had a busy private practice!
Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago due to heart annuerysm,

I've learned a lot from him -- especially about the dormant talents residing within each of us (to a greater or lesser degree). In fact, he was always amazed at what people could be capable of, if only they would've been aware of those talents!
For that reason, I can't help being filled with dismay when people declare that something is impossible! Beleive me, ANYTHING is possible! (we might not simply be ready it, yet...)

Though, as far as the Reincarnation is concerned, I doubt we will ever be ready to accept the fact of our spirit's Immortality!!!

Oh, please, look at the history of beliefs, and at what people believe today.

The vast majority of human beings are all too happy to accept the idea of an immortal soul or spirit. Its an appealing and pleasing idea to many, myself included. There is no issue with people be adverse to the belief because they dislike it, or that it makes them uncomfortable. What could be more pleasing than to imagine your soul to be immortal?

The problem is - some people prefer to base their actual beliefs on solid evidence.

Here's to all the people who prefer evidence . You have my respect!

Thanx, though my doubt (whether we will ever be ready to accept the fact of our spirit's Immortality) reffers exactly to the matter of the lack of solid evidence -- since everything we have so far is quite questionable!

On the other hand, I seem to contradict myself:
after all, I was the one suggesting

May be, some day, the official Science will prove it???

(Actually, I suspect they already know that, but disclosing such an info might lead to apathy lack of effort -- if everything falls apart, there's no reason in trying fixing it, since there's always the next time... (although one just have to realize how much easier it will be the next time, if one achieves the optimum result in the present!)

Thanx GOD I'm an atheist, otherwise I could swear the Devil's confused the Hell out of me!!!

Oh, I may have misunderstood you; by 'ready to accept' I thought you meant 'willing to set aside our discomfort with the idea'...now I think you might mean 'have reason to accept'.



Just for the record, it doesn't matter to me whether evidence is collected in the domain of 'official science' (if that means recognized scientific institutions, journals, researchers...) - only that evidence is collected with procedures that meet comparable standards.


But I agree - if our memories survive death and re-enter another human being, I think that eventually there would be strong evidence for it.

I don't think it has anything to do with our memories,
but with -- as much as I hate the word (because it carries religious connotations) -- the SPIRIT!!! (i.e. an all-inclusive essence of the personality)

When a person is brought back through their memories to early life events, and then supposedly 'brought back' to memories of events in previous lives, and the memories they have of supposedly previous lives are believed to be memories of actual historical occurrence, leading some people to believe that their memories of past lives have survived their deaths....

...this has nothing to do with memories?

What characteristics of you does your spirit contain?

So if Jane = a sum total of Jane like characteristics, to make the whole Jane, then what parts does spirit reflect?

If eternal spirit somehow means eternal Jane, then what gets carried with this eternal stuff and what gets left behind?

If the answer ends up being nothing we could call Jane, then why would that be considered eternal life?

A medium that does not interact in such a way as to be detected, but that carries information, or purpose or structure or what ever characteristic you may want to assign to it that somehow influences your experience here and now seems dubious at best contradictory more likely.

If spirit is merely a metaphor for that which makes humans human, or that which makes a life form that life form then its emergent from the sum of the whole, our lives, our essence, whatever gets put in effects the sum whole, the totality of the individual is derivative.

This maps to what we see, so I tend to think its a wholly better hypothesis for reality as it meets consciousness. I see no purpose for some kind of medium to store our essence, I see only emergent characteristics from the derivation of form and purpose and experience. Only when all of these things come together does the individual have that essence we call soul, its illusory that a reduction of form stores this complexity, its the very nature of complexity to be achievable via multi-faceted interactions. I think most magical thinking is just an unease with complexity, its a yearning for simple explanations.

I can't say for Jane, but in my belief system, the question "What characteristics of you does your spirit contain? is sort of putting the cart before the horse. Kind of like asking "What characteristics of my job do I contain?". And If I may paraphrase the next question it is like asking So if [Doctor] = a sum total of [Doctor] like characteristics, to make the whole [Doctor], then what parts does [the person] reflect?

"Doctor" is simply a label for a set of characteristics, but it's not the person. The person can "be" a father, and a Doctor, and a husband, and a musician, and many other things. But those things are no the person. They are sets of characteristics that we have agreed to slap a lable on for convenience.

Also, the concept of "having" a spirit does not fit with my belief system. In my belief system, I AM a spirit. And it is that spirit which "assumes the identity" of Human Being and SkyHook and Senior Software Engineer and Father and Musician. Thus, going back to the original post, I agree that spirit is not a "form of energy". It would be more accurate to say that spirit creates energy.

JMHO

Bingo!

I seriously doubt any of the mortals' open-mindedness and expertise in Spiritual realm (except, possibly, that of SkyHook's)!!!

"A wise man once said that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Much of what we experience, we do not understand. It does not make it wrong, invalid, magic, or spiritual. It may be right, valid, magic, or spiritual ... but the reality is that we just don't understand.

I sincerely appologise -- HOW COULD I HAVE EXCLUDED ANOTHER SUCH WISE MAN, LIKE Metalwing??? So, without futher adue, let me correct myself:

Ha! You two timer!