How can so many people STILL believe in the obsurdities of religion?
How can so many people have so little ability in logical thinking?
How can so many people completely ignore or excuse the obviously evil acts written up as having been done by their godthing?

It seems like such obvious B.S. to me. It really bogles my mind how religionists aren't the minority.

I have one word for you-

FAITH

yeah...that helps alot. thx...

There are real answers to this question...many of them.

One of them, I think, is as simple as our fear of death.

Another is related to our desire for community.

I was recently speaking to a Buddhist, who said that its part of our nature to need mythology - certain kinds of fictional stories, so in his branch of Buddhism they have all these myths, which are there for the people who need them. The rationalists can have a very light hearted relationship with those stores, and the mysticism-oriented can take them very seriously.

I don't need mythology. I don't particularly understand any need for mythology.
I really don't understand how anyone could believe anything that doesn't pass the logic test. Is thinking logically really that hard?

Maybe I'm just different...

No, but it is pretty cold and sterile at times. I know a lot of people who practice a religion but who don't particularly believe in the supernatural aspects of it.

Ask some of the really intelligent ones sometimes in a heart-to-heart and they'll tell you something that may amaze you-- it's not the beliefs, the mythology or even the fear of divine reprisals.

It's the rituals. They find some comfort in them that they can compartmentalize.

"If it harms none, do as you will."


-Kerry O.

Rituals? I've always defined "rituals" as excuses to not think for oneself. I find it sad and rather disgusting that anyone would find comfort in such things.
In principle, the phrase "If it harms none, do as you will" is something I agree with...to a point. There were a lot of people in Germany in the 1930's and 40's that harmed none, but through in-action, allowed a great deal of harm to occur. By tacitly giving support to a religion, they are also giving support to all the bad things religion does.

I think there's a big difference between dogma and the practice of rituals. Although they often won't admit it, many of the people who find comfort in the rituals will, when pressed, express doubt in the dogma.

Nor do I think it does the cause any great favor to adopt a 'line in the sand' approach when it comes to examining the role of rituals. I watched my mother die slowly of cancer over an 8 month period, even as I myself was in acute danger myself of dying from internal bleeding. I took part in some of the prayer meetings her pastor had at the house for her. To what purpose would it have served to go all ideological? I didn't for one minute buy into what the pastor was 'selling'-- I was there for my mother.

Paradoxically, my near death experiences have made me even more agnostic than I was before. But who am I to deny or pass judgement on something that harms no one yet seems to give comfort to the dying? Or at times of deep emotional trauma, to the living?

I also doubt a convincing case can be made for Christianity being the root cause of the Halocaust in Germany. The Christians will use turnabout is fair play on your argument by bringing up Stalin's atheism.

We all go down into the dark sooner or later, victims of the corrosive condition known as life. We can't think our way out of it any more than we can pray our way out of it, but if rituals help some to face that fate with composure, I say let them find comfort wherever they can.

-Kerry O.

I have never known a single person who did not find some kind of comfort in some kind of ritual - even if the ritual was simply taking a **** first thing in the morning.

My condolences on the loss of your mother.

I wasn't making the case that christianity was the root cause of the holocaust. I was, in fact, making the case that people keeping their heads in the sand allowed the holocaust to happen. Sorry I was, appearently, unclear on that.

I've known quite a few people who took comfort in rituals. None of them ever questioned why they were doing a certain thing, or set of things. This is what I find disturbing. I do not understand how anyone can do any thing with out knowing exactly why they were doing it. This lack of ability or willingness to question has gotten humanity into more trouble, I think, than anything else. It seems to be systemic to the species. And I hate it and will always fight against it.
Comforting the dying should not, in my opinion, be done with platitudes and lies. I think it more reasonable to comfort them with the truth of their lives, how much their life meant to their loved ones, how their passing will hurt but not kill those they leave behind, ect. But maybe that's just me.

I have no rituals. Nor have I any superstitions. Biological processes do not count as rituals. You might as well say breathing is a ritual---I do it practically every damn day.

Thanks, Arcamedees. As they had us, so will we always have them in our memories.



Fair enough.




For much of my life, I suffered from a not uncommon phobia. If you haven't suffered from one yourself, it's just so difficult to empathise with because it's an unknown quantity one can't decipher through inspection. While I would readily agree that it was illogical, my subconscious had other issues with it.

Eventually, I was cured of it the way most people are cured of them-- by flooding. It was highly unpleasant and gut-wrenching and probably not something I would have chosen if it had not been forced upon me by a life-threatening illness.

I think religious rituals are at least a little like phobias-- people partake of them because there's a little fear of the unknown hovering about in their subconsciousness. And you have to sometimes drag them kicking and screaming through the fire if you want them to take another path. It's often just easier for everyone to let them make their own private detente with their fears.

-Kerry O.

This smells like a semantic issue; i'm guessing you might mean "ritual = deliberate repetitive action motivated by a superstitious belief", whereas I'm thinking somewhere along the line of recurring actions done in a precise manner. I'm especially interested in those whose very repetitiveness imbues the actions with the ability to influence the actor's state of mind.

You are right that biological functions that are addressed as need arise are not rituals, but if they are addressed as part of a series of actions that a person makes every morning, then it is most definitely a kind of ritual.

In one of my jobs, I heard stories of major SNAFUs due to some occasional small oversights of the person I replaced, so I made a checklist of two dozen obvious and simple things that had to be done by a certain point. Eventually, I started doing all the things on that list in a specific order, and then eventually it became an unconscious ritual which prevented me from making any of those mistakes.

Just about everybody makes their life far more efficient by introducing some small rituals into their behavior patterns. Many people find a degree of emotional comfort in rituals as simple as reading the paper over coffee most mornings, or watching the game on sunday, or going for a jog or playing WoW after work.

At least you had a mother worth remembering. I gave up mine 16 years ago. I don't even know if my parents are still alive.

No, I've never had a phobia, per se. I've got a little bit of fear of falling, but not enough to keep me from going up to high places or looking out windows several stories up or pretty much anything else. Except perhaps skydiving. The only way I can see myself skydiving is if the plane I'm in is on fire and my choices are burn or jump.
I get your point about rituals based on fears. I just don't understand how someone could let those fears rule one's life. Rationality seems to be (to me anyway) the best defense against fear.
Perhaps my inability to understand this is just something that will always be.

I'm thinking this is a semantic issue, in part. The rest we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Well, the REALLY frustrating thing about phobias is that you know the fear is irrational. But since much of the physical reaction to the trigger condition happens below conscious level in a part of the brain called the amygdala, that doesn't help one iota. Oh, one can analyze it to tears, but it does nada good. You're fighting what is basically an autonomic neurological defense mechanism. How that misdirected defense mechanism got there is a whole 'nother story. Often, as was the case with me, it set up because of a very traumatic experience early in life. In a way, it was pretty ironic that an even more traumatic experience a few years ago pretty much cancelled out the first.


I have to wonder if excessive religiousity isn't another sort of misdirected defense mechanism. I think it could wll be, and though I don't have to suffer with it, I can certainly empathize with people who get sucked into those voids. I guess that's why I tend to go easier on the non-militant religionists and were they to want a dialogue about religion, I can understand from where they are coming and not crash their boundaries.

-Kerry O.

That actually explains a lot. I've known, or at least suspected, my slight fear of falling probably developed in my childhood. I used to climb trees and cliffs alot when I was a kid. I've fallen out of trees and off cliffs more than a few times. What can I say? I was kind of a dare devil and took chances that would scare the hell out of anyone w/ an ounce of wisdom. Which, of course I didn't have back then. After a while, climbing stuff just didn't seem all that much fun any more. It was only much later in life when I noticed I felt a tad uncomfortable being up high.
My point is I'm thinking kids who are exposed to all the scariness religion has to offer, mayhaps devolope that phobia about non religiousness. This seems to make sense to me and it explains why it is so damn hard to make reasonable people see the absurdities of religion.

Thank you. You have given me much to think about.

Woah! Arcamedees! Did you really say that? I thought you just loved arguing. Agree to disagree? And miss all the fun we could have here in the atheist section, where we just don't have enough discussion?

Loved arguing? Naw. I just argue when I see something I believe is completely wrong. Actually, most of the time I think people should save time and just agree to see things my way.
However, if I see an impasse, I will most likely quit the argument.

Like this, for instance. You believe certain things are rituals. I believe that repetitive actions that have a bonafide and desired result are not. I believe you would say that my always putting my keys in my right front pocket when I get dressed is a ritual. I would say it isn't because the ignition in my car is on the right side and it's easier to get the keys to my ignition from the right pocket than the left. Impass.

So, if you aren't interested in arguing with me, does that mean that you don't think that I am completely wrong?




I'm not sure...I may not have been clear earlier, but rituals are sequences of actions, not individual acts. Defecating just after waking (properly, hygienically) requires a series of steps....but having just typed that, I realize one can always break down any individual act into a sequences of sub-actions...some level of 'common sense' has to enter into the picture as to how complex an activity must be to become a ritual.

In my book, placing the keys in your front pocket every morning is not a ritual by itself. At the other extreme, we have the following sequence: waking, defecating, showering, brushing teeth, putting on your clothes, putting the keys in your pocket, eating breakfast - and always in that order.

But your point was not related to complexity, it was related to purpose, right?


Basically, though, my main point here is that I just want to cause more comments to be made in the atheist section.