see,, all this talk of cheeks and gender superiority,,,,,went and frightened sugar away,,,,,


dont mind them sugar,,, come back,,,,come back!!

I am not sure what you are talking about here.The New testament was written around 30-40 years after Jesus died.It obviously couldn't have been written 600 years after the fact since those who witnessed these events would be dead.The bible has also not changed.The stories are the same.You can look at the oldest known versons of the bible and they read the same as any present day bible.Nothing was added or taken away from the bible in the thousands of years it has existed.

Conerning money.Any church or any Christian bookstore will give you a bible for free.Going to church is and has always been a free service.People give because they want to not because they have to.

As far as questioning the word of God.You can question it all you want nobody is going to stop you.We have free speech in this country.You can put up a hundred anti Christian anti God websites nobody is going to arrest you.

Everybody has an opinion, but nobody has any proof.

Does proof always have to be in a physical form of evidence?Usually in court cases including capital punishment cases two eyewitness are proof enough to put a man to death.When Jesus was alive you had hundreds of thousands of people who saw what he did.Even non biblical records relating to Rome confirmed Jesus was real.Did you have hundreds of thousands of witnesses to Buddha to Allah?If we did not have physical evidence of George washington why would we believe he ever existed?History dating back thousands of years is only known many times by the accounts of the people who wrote books about what life was like back then.So I believe the testimony of thousands of people is just as relevant as physical evidence.You can also have physical evidence but no testimony or eyewitness accounts to back up your physical evidence.It is worthless.You can assume and speculate all you want.When you have 20 or 30 people that tell you the same story from all different walks of life it becomes much harder to discredit.

On the contrary:
I think 2000 years of faith is a proof enough! It proves the fact of the story has been preserved -- mainly VERBALLY -- for hundreds of years (until the invention of the printing press) since all of the Jesus' followers have been (just as he, before proclaiming himself a son of God) poor illiterate Hebrew peasants and fishermen. Therefore, I doubt very much that either Paul or Peter have enrolled in a night course of literacy for the purpose of recording the transpired events (although 30-40 years would be enough for that). Unfortunately, by then both of them would have turned into the frail old men barely capable of taking care of themselves (not to mention writing anything, especially a book!!!)
Nuh, that seems as the work of the very clever ruller (or his supporters) who've been bent on institutionalizing the OBEDIENCE as the way of life! Therefore, most probably, they simply plagiarized the Old testament and altered it to fit their needs...

Its not that I'm a die-hard atheist! Just looking at things objectively, that's all!

As far as I'm concerned the proof is in the pudding.

The overal biblical story is insane. The addition of the Christian version of attempting to make Jesus out to be the sacrifical son of an insane god only makes it even more insane, IMHO.

The very idea of a creator who is so utterly lame that he created inept beings for which he must send his only begotten son to be nailed to a pole to save could only be either utterly insane himself, or extremely desperate and inept to require performing such a deed to "save" his very own creation.

It's the very nature of the story that demands that this so-called "God" either be insane or inept. There's simply no other explanation. There is nothing sane or all-powerful about creating a species of being for which the creator himself must be nailed to a pole in order to SAVE.

Even if the story were true, I could do nothing but feel sincerely sorry for such an inept god. I most certainly wouldn't THANK it or worship it for being such an inept idiot and hopelessly inept parent.

The premise of the story is utterly insane IMHO, and that's enough right there to completely dismiss it as even being remotely possible.

I don't need any "proof" to see that such a picture of a "God" does not equate to being either all-powerful or all-wise. Designing a creation in such a way that you need to have yourself nailed to a pole to save it can only be an exhibition of utter stupidity or an act of extreme desperation, IMHO. Either one of those is simply not an option for a supposedly all-powerful, all-wise God.

So the story falls flat on it's own face. No proof required, IMHO.

thats odd, I have never read of anything confirming illiteracy,,,,and I dont find it a stretch that a physician, or a tax collector, or an interpreter(some of the authors of the gospels) would probably be quite literate

Bull.

What you don't realize is that those so called alleged "eye witnesses" could be pure fiction. They are no longer living today anyway, so they are not proof of anything. They could also be just as fictitious as Jesus himself. Its just a bunch of stories. There are no eye witnesses.




What non-Biblical records? Name them please.



What "thousands of people" are you referring to? What are their names? Is there any proof they even existed?

Did you know that people back then who denied the new doctrine that Jesus Christ was real, and the son of God, were put to death? Don't you think that might cast a bad reflection on the credibility of any real witnesses?



DNA evidence and fingerprints are not worthless.



Then why hasn't the official government declared that aliens are abducting humans.. for real?

You have not had any real eyes witnesses to Jesus tell you anything. They are all dead. They may have all been fictitious. If you give them credibility, then you have to prove that they existed. Then you have to prove that they did not make those statements under duress, because they were in fear of their lives.

(Christians used "convert or die" all too often to believe any witnesses.)

...And yet THOUSANDS of LIVING eyewitnesses are claiming TODAY stories of alien abductions and they are laughed at by "non believers" and by most official government authorities.

So no, thousands of eye witnesses mean NOTHING. Especially DEAD ONES.

No religion ever claimed that Budda and Allah incarnated onto the earth as a real human either, so of course they don't need to invent or claim hundreds of thousands of witnesses.

A God is a God. Everyone knows that you can't prove a God exists in real physical reality.

But Christianity went a different route. They took stories of a mythical God and made the claim that he was born FOR REAL as a real human. The other stories of saviors and sons of God were understood and accepted as myths.

There were many people who challenged the claim that Jesus was a man and the son of a God, hence God himself. There was a large group who felt this way. They were executed. Killed.

This is the basis of the innate fear that some people have in church to question the 'word of God' or question the pastor or priest. Back in the old days, that was a fatal mistake.

With this type of logic, can we believe any historical person ever existed???



Why name them? There are no living eyewitnesses to the actual writing...
But, if you do some research, you will reveal that though there weren't many writings, the ones that are known are well-respected by historians. Some of the authors include Jewish scholars, Roman historians, Greek historians and Pagan philosophers as well as the few court records that have been found. (the court records may be a stretch as they don't mention his name)




Seriously??? Why would you want their names if you are simply going to discredit them for being dead?

Did you know that people back then who acknowleged and upheld the teachings of Jesus were put to death by both the Romans and the Pagans? Don't forget that the Israelis were persecuted for thousands of years so the "holier than thou" attitude against Christians just doesn't wash with me.

Don't you think that testimony in spite of the repercusions should give credence to those real witnesses?




Without testimony they are worthless...




I don't understand the comparison. Are you saying that Christians aren't ridiculed? Or are you saying that aliens are real and I should believe the "living" testimony?

Because you can't just make off the wall claims and expect them to be believed if you don't name any of your sources.

So far the most 'credible' mention of Jesus was by Titus Flavius Josephus who is claimed to be a first-century Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I think he only mentioned Jesus once 'outside of Biblical text' and that account is questionable and some think it was translated incorrectly and the name of the person he mentioned was actually changed. Also, I have my suspicion that Titus Flavius Josephus is only a pen name and that no such person by that name existed. Some one else wrote all that stuff. I won't go into that theory here (again) because I don't have time.


As for needing living witnesses for the actual writing, we don't really need that to know that it was written. ...by someone.
The who of who wrote the Bible is still debated.


************************************************************

Yeh people have been killing each other over their Gods for centuries. That does not mean I should believe any of them. That includes yours.







I don't know where you came up with that question about whether Christians are ridiculed or not. That is NOT point.

The POINT is that IF thousands of witnesses are 'credible' enough to believe then I would think that LIVE ones would be more believable than DEAD ONES.

Therefore, if LIVE witnesses are not believed, then why do you think that DEAD ones would have any credibility??

Hey reality check here last time i checked evertbody dies me the people in the car wreck the lady that died from cancer whatever they died from how does that effect there credibility. are you saying when someone dies there credibility goes out the window

But of course, IF that someone was an impressionable child!

God is here!. God is there!. God is in my underwear! God is watching over us!.

LOL! More like God is watching over us from Under you! (since, as you mentioned, God is in my underwear!

_____________________Seriously, though:____________________
Some inconsistencies really are troublesome -- Leave the mythology behind, and learn to think for yourself. Your intellect is a better instrument of spiritual growth than any religious teachings.
1. When you subscribe to a religion, you substitute nebulous group-think for focused, independent thought. Instead of learning to discern truth on your own, you’re told what to believe. This doesn’t accelerate your spiritual growth; on the contrary it puts the brakes on your continued conscious development. Religion is the off-switch of the human mind.

2. Religions are authoritarian hierarchies designed to dominate your free will. They’re power structures that aim to convince you to give away your power for the benefit of those who enjoy dominating people. When you subscribe to a religion, you enroll in a mindless minion training program. Religions don’t market themselves as such, but this is essentially how they operate.
Religions are very effective at turning human beings into sheep. They’re among the most powerful instruments of social conditioning. They operate by eroding your trust in your own intellect, gradually convincing you to put your trust into some external entity, such as a deity, prominent figure, or great book.
Simply by convincing you to give your power away to something outside yourself (supposedly much greater and wiser), religion will condition you to be weaker, more docile, and easier to control. Religions actively promote this weakening process as if it were beneficial, commonly branding it with the word faith. What they’re actually promoting is submission * * *

* * * As long as there are large numbers of people who fear the responsibility of their own power, religions will continue to dominate the landscape of human development
If you want to talk to God, then communicate directly instead of using third-party intermediaries. Surely God has no need of an interpreter. Don’t fall into the trap of becoming a mindless minion. It’s a mistake to think that turning off your mind and practicing mindless “faith” will bring you closer to God. In truth it will only bring you closer to dog. * * *
Seriously, if you have insomnia, try reading religious texts before bedtime. You’ll be asleep faster than you can say Methuselah. Why do you think hotels put Bibles next to the bed? It’s the greatest sedative known to man -- reading some of the worst fiction ever written.

3. Your religious donations fund freeloaders who mooch off society but who generally provide little or no value in return. These freeloaders typically operate tax-free, meaning they’re effectively subsidized by taxpayers. That’s a great racket if you’re on the receiving side… not so great if you’re funding it though.
* Religions offer a suite of special services:
They’ll spout some gibberish while feeding you a crusty wafer, pronounce you bonded to a fellow human being, snip some of your excess skin, pour water on your head, proclaim your manhood, cast out your demons, pronounce your transgressions forgiven, and so on.
When they can’t think of anything else, they make up some drivel like confirming you’re still loyal to them. The bill may read “suggested donation,” but it’s still a bill. {Any tricks to generate additional income.}
***> When you donate money to a religious organization, you’re doing much worse than throwing your money away. You’re actively funding evil. If you think that spending a billion dollars to defend pedophiles and rapists is a good use of your hard-earned cash, perhaps you should run for Pope. You could hardly do worse. At least Wall Street is honest about its greed and lust. * * *

1. My mind works perfecty well, and I think independently, although my thoughts are affected by my experiences, and my environment, and my education,,etc,,,,,

my spiritual and religious 'education' are no exception to the basic rule of how all that I experience contributes to my growth. Because I dont live in a tunnel and do congregate with others who have had similar lessons,, in no way means Im a victim of 'group think'..

2. I am definitely not a mindless minion either. Truth is LIFE does have hierarchies, rather in career settings, in educational settings, or in family settings. We are all equally created but we dont have EQUAL responsibilities,,, I am no more mindless for respecting the authority of God than employees are for respecting the authority of their employer or children are for respecting the authority of their parents. When 'submission' is a choice, it takes no less strength than domination. But the err in that type of thinking is that anyone is COMPLETELY submissive or COMPLETELY dominating at any given time when in fact, there are times in all of our lives when we must be ONE or the OTHER.

3. I dont understand the logic that charity is about giving to free loaders or who determines how many of those in need are just free loading. charity that is organized to help those in need is useful and good whether it is organized by spiritually like minded, or by politically like minded, or just by neighbors in a community.


of course, these are just my personal views and philosophies, and not meant to offend anyone. I just felt I should clarify that My faith personally involves no troublesome inconsistencies,,,

Or, in other words, you find it possible justifying those troublesome inconsistencies? ? ?


Employers, parents, etc. -- those in authority -- are REAL beings! That's normal. But respecting the authority of some fairytale is not!!!