not as i see it. you can test over and over again. observe the results over and over again. but you have no way of knowing that from the next test you will observe the predicted result or a suprise result which disproves the "fact".

I have a tarot deck finished that is one-of-a-kind. It has a dragon type-style and the images have no frame around them.

My new decks will have an Ariel type-style and they will have a frame around them. They will be a bit shorter and wider.

If you are interested in looking at this deck, check it out at my queen of coins website. http://www.queenofcoins.com

Learning to read the tarot is easy with this deck.

I would say that the conversation needs to be focused upon what a fact actually is.

It is a fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

The above statement is true.

The earth revolved around the sun before we knew it did.

The above statement is true.

Given the above, how could one possibly conclude that the we determine what is a fact through agreement? I think it is much more accurate to conclude that we learn of facts through knowledge. The designation of the label fact when bestowed upon that set of physical relations does not create it's truth value, in and of itself. It only does so in the sentences which decribe this.

There is no denying the subjective personal involvement required in all of our understanding, yet I find it to be self-sourced or perhaps a little disingenious to attribute the very existence of things which have been realized to exist - in and of themselves - to our subjective nature, just because of that nature.

Our subjective nature cannot be denied.

That does not mean everything else in the universe depends upon that for it's existence. Our ideas do not constitute the makings of the universe as it is - in and of itself.

You have to agree on a definition for the word fact first.

FACT: AN UNDISPUTED TRUTH

TRUTH: AN ESSENCE OF A SUBSTANCE OR IDEA

However, since most of the facts depend upon our current level of sophistication, then the Truth is a relative matter.

Therefore, most of the facts are just Agreements!

Example: the sun always sets at the West...
However, West, East, (and not to mention South and North) are just agreements.

well if fact is undisputed truth, then i've never observed a fact other than what i've experienced myself. so, as nova has asked that we first define fact if we are to discuss it, i'll accept jane's definition of "fact".

Aye, there's the rub!

(Here I go again with the viewpoints thing. )

It seems to me that a fact is relative to a frame of reference. For example, if one uses a reference point located on the surface of the earth at one of the poles, the sun obviously revolves around the earth. You can stand on one of the poles and see it go 'round and 'round. It is a "fact" that the sun goes around you when you are standing on the earth.

So maybe "fact" only makes sense when speaking from a third-person viewpoint.

But that means that facts can only be relative to other facts.

So where does it start?

Well I don't see anyplace it can start other than from a first-person viewpoint. Someboody has to pick a fact as a reference point. Somebody says "this is the reference point" (e.g. the sun) so realative to that reference point, the earth revolves around the sun.

Just something to think about.

Jane,

Don't be so sure. facts are disputed quite often.
But facts are not "just" agreements, although before we name a thing a fact we do have to agree, for the most part, that it is true.

A thing is labeled "fact" when we believe it to be true and then we agree to call it a "fact."

But if we discover it is not true, then it looses its label "fact."

As Creative said, currently it is an (established) "fact" that the earth revolves around the sun. He also states that the earth revolved around the sun before we knew it did and before we agreed it did. At least we believe it did, so we call this a fact.

There was a time when the sun was a God riding his chariot across the sky. There was also a time when people thought the sun was the center of the universe. But these things were discovered to be wrong.

If we, by some miracle, were to discover that the earth did not revolve around the sun after all then we would not call that a fact anymore.

Creative's certainty is that NOW THIS TIME we have the truth.

But what if we discovered otherwise? What if we discovered (work with me here) that the earth was in some sort of holographic universe and things were not what they appeared to be? What if it was all an elaborate illusion or projection?

I'm certainly not saying that is the case. I accept that it is a fact that the earth revolves around the sun. But what if we were wrong about that? Then we would have to stop calling that a fact.

So "fact" is a label that we give to things that we believe to be true. Whether they are true or not we may not be 100% sure.

We are certainly more sure of some things than other things. If a thing is repeatedly been shown to be true, we agree that it is true and we call it a fact.

I agree that truth is truth no matter what it is. But the label "fact" is for the things we believe to be true. This means that some of our facts might be true, and some of them might not be true.

That is what science is for. It verifies and tests the things we call facts and weeds out the ones that have failed the test of being true.

We are all looking for the truth. When we find what we believe to be a truth, we call it a "fact." "Fact" is just a label for what we believe and agree it true.

So I understand it when someone says "facts" do not exist, and I understand it when people object to that statement.

Facts don't exist because "fact" is just a label for something we believe and agree is true, and we could be wrong. We could be right also.

Facts do exist because we say they do. We have decided what is true and labeled it 'fact.' We are, after all, in charge of labeling our observations.

Reality is real because we have decided it is. We say it is. Facts are true because we have decided they are. Facts are not true if we discover they are not true and we will cease to call them facts.

Objective or subjective does not matter. The bottom line is we decide and we agree.... but truth is truth.

We are simply looking for truth, and will continue to look for truth.

Is truth an agreement too? Probably.

But we are living in a shared reality. We seek agreement for truth. If we were not living in a shared reality, one person in one reality, or one person in one universe. His word would be law. His reality would be truth.

On a very philisophical level,,,fact always has to start with an agreement once it goes beyond the initial observation. IN the example,,, the earth revolves around the room,,,possibly/probably someone or a group of people actually observed this for themselves,,however MOST of us have not. So for it to become a FACT , several people since that observation have had to agree or have faith in the word of those who made the claim.

This is how I compare biblical history and american history, in the end it comes down to the faith that those who wrote the 'facts' were dependable.

as is often the case bean, you've misread what a poster has posted. jane did not say facts are not disputed. i think that she obviously copy/pasted a dictionary definition of the word "fact". nova suggested that we define the word before proceding. jane defined "fact" to be an "undisputed truth". she never said facts are not disputed.

I stand corrected. I misread it. Sorry Jane.

GIVE IT A BIG ROSANNA ROSANNA DANA...

NEVER MIND!



jrbogie

"As often the case???" Please feel free to correct me if I misread someone again. I did not think I did it "often."

oops. my wording this time. meant to say something like, "as is often the case on forums such as these". sorry bean, really wasn't refering to you being anything but sweet often.

Thanx, jrborgie, dear.
However, I challenge you to search the WWW -- any resources -- and find the exact same definition of "FACT" (that you think I obviously copy/pasted a dictionary definition of). That will help me very much, i.e. I wouldn't have to overstrain my little female brain over such a complex matter!!!

I don't think that you copied or pasted a dictionary definition. I am not the one who said that. (It was jrbogie) It never entered my mind at all.

I'm innocent.

Dear Jane, here's a little known fact:

If you go to Google and type in the word define: with a colon after it. And then type in the word you wish to find a definition for, Goggle will then give you a page of definitions like the following:

Define: fact

~~~

Definitions of fact on the Web:

a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case"

a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts"

an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell"

a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"

In law, a question of fact (also known as a point of fact) is a question which must be answered by reference to facts and evidence, and inferences arising from those facts. Such a question is distinct from a question of law, which must be answered by applying relevant legal principles. ...


I love this one!
FACT (The Foundation for Art & Creative Technology) is a multimedia complex based on Wood Street in Liverpool, England.

A fact is a pragmatic truth, a statement that can, at least in theory, be checked and either confirmed or denied. ...

An honest observation; Something actual as opposed to invented; Something which has become real; Something concrete used as a basis for further interpretation; An objective consensus on a fundamental reality that has been agreed upon by a substantial number of people; Information about a ...

Federation of Automated Coding Technology -- A bureau of AIM consisting of organizations that use and promote automatic identification among their members.

In PeopleSoft applications, facts are numeric data values from fields from a source database as well as an analytic application. A fact can be anything you want to measure your business by, for example, revenue, actual, budget data, or sales numbers. A fact is stored on a fact table.

a statement that can be PROVEN <--- This one is hilarious

Is a reality, truth

a description of a bit or piece of some domain of inquiry.

Information that has been objectively verified. Objectively verified by Subjective Observers!

Sorry, jeanie, I didn't mean accusing you -- I simply forgot the name qualification -- though I responded to jrborgie's post!!!

well jane, if it's not a dictionary definition it should be. i like it regardless of who defines it. meant no offense. meant to give you credit.

jrborgie:

Oh well, thanx nevertheless... Though I'd appreciate you obstain from chauvenistic generalizations -- at least where I'm concerned...