See no evidence, hear no evidence, speak no evidence...

Truly.

So why even bother to ask the be "shown" evidence?

Just open up the "Church of New Faith of Happenstance" and ignore any evidence to the contrary.

That's what most religions do anyway.

Ya shouldn't use terms that you do not understand the meaning of.

Now you lost me. How is that evidence of intentional design??? I am not being a smartass here either. ????

It's not Dragoness!

Good job!

Quoted for truth...



Every argument in favor of a designed universe boils down to this.

Well, think about it.

You've got less than hand-full atoms to work with. Those few parts must come together on their own accord to create stars that can burn dependably for billions of years, and create even more sophisticaed parts in the process to spew out, so they can go on to create planets upon which living beings can crawl around on.

And life evolves from such a very limited few atoms?

Happenstance?

Just exactly what are we calling 'happenstance' here?

If you got a box in the mail that contained precisely what you need top build a sentient robot, would you assume that the box was just filled with random junk?

I doubt it very much.

Well, we got a "Big Bang" in the mail so-to-speak that just happens to contain all the right parts in it to create stars, planets, and self-programming beings, with hardly any extraneous parts left over at all (if any).

Why should we think that is happenstance?

Like I say. The evidence is vivid. The choice is yours.

To conclude happenstance in the face of this evidence would be utterly silly, IMHO.

And I didn't even rehash the part about the quantum field only allowing these particular atoms to 'pop' into existence?

A mail-order supply house that only ships out the very few parts necessary to create a living universe?

Happenstance?

I don't think so.

I am tired now so that may be a contributor but still not getting this.

I am not a fan of the big bang theory but will not discount it completely. I think we don't know what the hell we are talking about at that level yet.

Your mail delivering explanation doesn't work for me here at all.

Just because there is limited amount of something that exists, shows that there is an intentional design how?

It not a limited 'amount' of something. On the contary, it a huge amount of a very few and very special unique things. Things that quantum physics shows us are not 'happenstance' at all but are being 'created' be very strict rules.

Secondly, the fact that those 'few' different things are indeed extremely few (only about 100 of them), and it is only these extremely few parts that automatically come together to produce such complex self-programing living beings, totally flies in the face of anything that could even remotely be called "happenstance".

So happenstance (as we know it) must be ruled out.

The only way to keep "happenstance" is to accept that our particular universe is an extremely rare event. In fact, to support this hypothesis what is usually offered is that there are actually infinitely many universes and we just happen to be in one of the extremely few where this condition was right (by happenstance)

But what does that say. All that says, is that we recognize that the univere is not happenstance if it only happened ONCE. But if we pretend that there are infinitely many "failed" universes then we can justify calling this univerese "happenstance".

So to believe in this hypothesis requires having faith there there exists infinitely many random "Failed" universe.

All that just to avoid having to confess that this universe is so special that it could never reasonably be considered to be happenstance in its own right.

How hard-up are we to be atheists?

We'd rather place our faith in an imagined infinity of failed universes just to claim that this one is 'happenstance' rather than to consider that we might not be the only conscious intelligent minds around?

Not only is that silly, but it's quite an arrogant human-centric thing to do too doncha think?

All you did here is show that you didn't comprehend the evidence I gave.

You're conclusion above is: "The universe cannot be logically said to be a design simply because it seems to share the attribute of order"

But that wasn't even close to the evidence that I presented.

I showed why the universe cannot be "happenstance". Moreover, I'm not alone in this. Even cosomolgists confess that this universe cannot qualify as "happenstance" on its own.

The only way to justify a conclusion of "happenstance" for this universe is to postulate the imagined existence of an infinity of other failed universes where this universe was merely one out of infinitely many that just happened to have the right conditions.

But postulating the imagined existence of an infinity of other failed universes just to rule out Intelligent Design of this one is a faith-based belief in its own right.

All to avoid the obvious conclusion that this particular universe cannot be happenstance if considered on its own.

That's some pretty desperate atheism doncha think.

Here we are with evidence that this universe cannot be happenstance and rather than just accept the evidence we hold our hands over our eyes and ears, run around the room screaming at the top of our lungs, "No! No! No! No! No! No! No! It can't be TRUE! There must be an infinity of failed universes out there that can explain why it makes sense to conclude that this one is happenstance!"

Does that really fit the bill of genuine philosophy?

Sounds more to me like someone with an agenda to conclude that this universe is happenstance no matter what the evidence might actually point to.

A single atom contains all of the 'seeds' and/or programing and information to create entire worlds teaming with life.

You might ask how can so much information be contained in something so small, but size is relative and meaningless.

I remember when a computer no better than what we now use as a hand held calculator took up an entire room. Now powerful computers are contained in smaller and smaller packages.

A tiny chip no bigger than a freckle can hold huge amounts of information.

And that is our crude man-made current technology.

Look how quickly we went from cave dwellers to a computing society.

Now give a universe unlimited 'time' and just imagine what kind of 'computing' ability it or the intelligent creatures living in it could come up with.

I am a simple person. I don't understand math. And I am astonished just with our current technology.

Imagine a technology from a mind or society living in a different space time. One in which we are just a universe inside of some test-tube or computer.

I don't agree still.

It doesn't compute as proof of anything to me.

So randomness is equal to limitless?

No one said it was 'proof' of anything.

The bottom line is that even the cosmologists recognize that the only way it makes sense to assume that our universe is happenstance is to imagine that it just one of infinitely many random universes most of which are fully of lifeless garbage.

And many cosmologists do indeed imagine just that.

I'm not sure why there is such a phobia of "Intelligent Design" that people would rather believe there are infinitely many garbage universe just to justify that this one is happenstance.

The only thing I can attribute to such a notion is the genuine repugnance of manmade religions. I think religions like Judaism, Islam, Catholicism and Protestantism have left such horrid fears and utter disgust in people that they never want to hear about a 'creator' ever again.

In all honesty. I can't say I blame them.

The manmade religions on this planet have truly been utterly disgusting.

I too would rather be an atheist than to believe in hateful jealous godheads who cast innocent people into hell fires for not worshiping their graven images and following their bigoted churches.

So in some sense I can truly understand the atheist's disgust of spirituality.

Fortunately I was able to overcome the trauma of such horrid pictures of angry unrighteous godheads.

So now I can consider Intelligent Design without fear or repugnance. I don't need to resort to imaginaing infinitely many failed universe just to justify that this one is happenstance.

I actually like the idea of Intelligent Design. Once you get past the traumatic dogma of hateful religions it's not a bad concept to embrace.

I think if humanity had never had never gone through the trauma of their hateful manmade religions people would be far more apt to embrace and be excited about the discovery that the universe can't be happenstance after all. It would be a new and fresh idea that there might actually be some intelligence behind it all.

But due to the traumatic and oppressive religious history of humanity (and the continued religious hostilities even to this very day), it's truly no wonder people just want to puke at the idea that there might be an intelligence behind reality.

I don't blame them at all. Manmade religions are horrid.

I agree. I see a paranoid phobia of intelligent design as a rebellion against the oppressive Gods of the past which were probably aliens like the ones on Star Trec who demanded worship from humans.

There is also a bloody history of "Convert to our God and religion or die!" that is probably ingrained in our cellular memories.

At some point the person vows to never accept the idea of any kind of God or 'higher power' to include the idea of 'intelligent design' because that idea might (just might) lead to some form of religion that tries to rule their lives.

It is a defensive mechanism and most probably an sub-conscious one.

I am headed to bed and really tired now but explain to me how random equals many random universes full of lifeless garbage? Randomness just means that the right time, place, environment etc... all happened on the right stage. This happens in our environment today. Hurricanes are an example, tornados, etc... All these failed universes full of lifeless garbage doesn't even fit into this equation any how that I can see.


I have no disgust with spirituality and no fear of intelligent design. I just do not see intelligent design proven anywhere. My issues are with man made religions also and mainly because people take the notions to a level that they forgo logic to believe them.

I know that we do not know even half of what we need to yet and all of this is up for grabs. But I still have yet to see intelligent design be proven above randomness.

I can answer that. This universe is so unique that it is probably one in a billion billion chances that it even exists if it is 'random' or 'happenstance'

One in a billion billion is just a guess, it could be more.

So where are the billion billion failed universes?

All I have seen is rational posts being answered by insults abra . . . very sad.

You point to physics, but do not explain how any of that points to design except to say it has to be.

You say your god is the universal consciousness, but where do we see its purpose? You just spin around like every other creationist and say look around you dumbo, which is insulting and not a chain of evidence that leads to your conclusion. Not good work.

Its really just one giant argument from ignorance, look how complex, oh wow cant you see it, arnt I cool I can point to nature and see purpose.

You are a creationist in popsci clothing.

I cannot provide proof of what started the galaxy or universe or what started everything, but I do find it very interesting that scientists have found planets that they claim could hold life! 32 of them last time I read an article about it!

Now if only we could find a way to get spaceships like the Star Trek Enterprise to go there. I bet we might find more answers to the questions we have possed for thousands of years if we could get off this planet and out of this universe.

Happy Halloween everybody by the way!

Somehow I get the feeling this thread isn't for what it appears to be for....

creativesoul, do you believe that the universe is a design?

Smiles,

I don't think the answer to the mystery of life and the universe lies in going to other planets. There are questions to be answered here that have not been answered. Other planets will just have more of the same.

Of course there is life in this Galaxy. Why would there not be? But we can't maintain peace on this tiny planet, so we have no business taking our crap to another one.