Msharmony...whether the logic is huge or small...it's still logic

Msharmony...God supposedly create the universe so that it would work on it's own ...now you are suggesting that god gets up every morning and water the flowers and blow butterflies in your path ..couldn't the butterfly make a decision to do that without interference from God..

No, YOU are making suggestions to fuel your endless debate of circular logic. Who said God made a universe to work on its own,,wasnt me. I didnt suggest God waters the flowers either. I pointed out that he COULD cause a butterfly to cross my path and it would do nothing to INTERFERE with my free will.

What is a charzard?

Msharmony....again animals also have free will....that's why it's because of faith that you are supposed to turn to god not free will ...

also I didn't say that "Free Will" rules out prayer..I said that because of "Free Will" and God's non-interfence clause that you are not supposed to ask God for anything of personal gain ...like saving a relative or money ..etc.

you are just supposed to tell god vain stuff about himself

Msharmony...can't we just debate the issue without you making personal judgements...it's the christian thing to do ...er...isn't it?

Not true, not interfering is not the same as not assisting. God steps in when you ASK him. The whole point is not to isolate himself from us completly by doing NOTHING, it is to see us come to him and acknowledge his presence, his power, and his love.

Maybe, maybe not, in this case. I am not insulting or judging you, just pointing out the obvious. Even Christ was known to speak on the obvious on times.

Msharmony...who said that God exist....pretty sure it wasn't me

but for the sake of argument if god didn't create the universe to be self sufficent and he has to intervene that means that he personally cause floods and other disasters to kill people

it's not like he hasn't cause a flood before...so are you saying that it's god that cause the flower to grow or that it's god that creation the self sufficent conditions for the flower to grow without his intervention

you can acknowledge his presence you are just not supposed to be asking for anything personal or gain

I would ask God for a handjob. Imagine how good at it he'd be?

well in this case I'm better than Christ because I will refrain from making such judgements about you ...I will just stick to the topic and not make it personal

BIG SIGH!! IM saying,,,without any hidden or mysterious meanings,, just what I posted. God CAN cause a butterfly to cross my path and it would not interfere with my free will. He doesnt HAVE to. I cant say that he HAS or he Hasnt. Just that , by nature of being God , he CAN and by nature of his gift to me,, I would still have free will.

I never judged you , I judged your actions. I refrain from believing I know anyone well enough to judge them, but I am bound to judge their actions and words.

Msharmony.....or perhaps God set up all the circumstances so that he could manuver you into crossing the path of the butterfly and therefore cause it to quicken it's pace which cause it to be eaten by a spider

that's why for anyone to claim that God intervene in any happenstance it takes away "Free Will"

also you never did answer the question about it you were a prisoner if you had the free will to leave ...because that question generally pop people out of the fantasy that they have "Free Will"

Msharmony ..to judge my actions and my words and then to post your own personal opinion is making it personal...is it so hard to just stick to the topic at hand ...

so sorry but WHAT in the world does a spider eating a butterfly have to do with my Christian free will? IF I were a prisoner, I wouldnt have free will to leave, I would still have free will though. Free will doesnt dictate what choices I have, only that I have choices. I would have free will to sit and contemplate my fate, if I were a prisoner. I could also choose to stand, I could choose to sing, I could choose to be silent, I could choose to aggravate my oppressers, I could chose to keep them happy...all because of my free will.

and on that note, I will leave you for a while to have fun with all your what ifs and perhaps'

Msharmony...you are assuming that god had the butterfly cross your path because of you....how do you know that God didn't do it for the butterfly and used you to cross the butterfly's path because your presence would cause the butterfly to make another decision other than what it would have if you didn't cross it's path .....this is why there is no Free Will if anyone claim that God interfer in any way

My baby cousin is fixing breakfast, what a beautiful kid. Now you are making assumptions about what you think I assume which just will begin a nother long pointless debate....this one has run its course for me but have a good day,,,:)

Msharmony...anything you do would depend on your captor...if you wanted to stand and they didn't want you to stand then you wouldn't be standing ...if you wanted to sit and comtemplate your fate it would be because they allow you to do so because they could inject drugs in you against your Free Will

this is why you only have choices to choose from and at any point in time those choices can be reduced or cancelled and it's nothing you can do about it ..and this is why there is no "Free Will" unless of course you are a God