Peacekeeper...

We didn't bring peace and order to Iraq. We brought chaos and death.

The sooner we leave, the sooner the Iraqis will get their act together.
We are the obstacle to peace in Iraq.

US analysts warned the Bush administration that this would happen if we
invaded. He and his appointees disregarded their insights and
recommendations, and so we created precisely what was predicted.

You may choose to be there because you are being paid, but please do not
fool yourself into thinking that it has done anything but increase the
threat to US security.

If you doubt this, please read the April 2006 NIE. I can send you
references, but Google will pull it up easily.

Nor, 'if we fight them there, we won't have to fight them here.' I
assume you are talking about the fighters who have travelled to Iraq to
help the Iraqi resistence liberate Iraq. They have zero interest in
fighting us here. They do have an interest in getting the US to revise
our blind support for Israel, and they do have an interest in getting
the US to stop propping up corrupt regimes in the region. These are
political issues, and we could resolve them easily if we wished to.

If you are talking about the Iraqi resistence fighters themselves, all
they are trying to do is liberate their country. Once we are expelled,
they have no interest in invading the US.

It is like our own War of Independence. Here, the French under the
Marquis de Lafayette brought troops and ships to help our freedom
fighters. Once the Americans won it, no one was suggesting we should
invade Britain. And like our own War of Independence, foreign friends
have arrived in Iraq to help the Iraqis fight for their liberation. Once
they have won, there is no reason to think they will try and invade us
here.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Oceans

Alex? Fanta? Undressing slowly? Okay! Fanta, good dog! Now go lay by
your dish. Now where were we?

Oceans:
foreign friends
have arrived in Iraq to help the Iraqis fight for their liberation. Once
they have won, there is no reason to think they will try and invade us
here.

Okee dokee, how about "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Do you
really think their so-called friends would want to sit around and share
the ol' hookah if the evil Americans weren't in the mix? Friends?
Come on man, put the gravity boots on! lol

Just who are you talking about, Zap?

Zap, why the belligerence?

Generally, the notion that 'the enemy of my enemies is my friend' is
simplistic, though at lot of people do think that way. But it is
short-sighted and leads to mistakes.

Example: On the grounds that the USSR was our enemy and the Afghani
mujaheddin were fighting the USSR, we backed the mujaheddin -- and Usama
bin Laden. And then, guess what? Charlie Wilson undoubtedly thought
that 'the enemy of my enemies is my friend', but, as I said, it was a
simplistic notion and led to bad decisions.

I can give you many other examples....

Oceans

I apologize if you thought I was being belligerent. You will eventually
pick up on the fact that not only do I have a sense of humor, I have a
warped sense of humor. I am sure that you could give me an
endless litany of reasons for any situation, but along the path of
constant bantering to infinity, I will have taken the fork in the road
that leads to common sense. Iranians helping Iraquis? Wait, didn't
Saddam nearly run roughshod over them? You don't think they have motives
beyond friendship? Quite frankly oceans, while your command of history
concerning the middle east seems impressive, that's where it ends. It's
much easier to drone on about history than it is to offer ideas for
change.... for some anyway. Yes, mistakes are often made in foreign
policy decisions but someone has to have the balls to try rather than
wringing their hands and offering nothing toward change. Now that was
belligerent, among other things.

Zap,

Belligerence does not equal humor, my friend.

I am guessing that I do a lot more in terms of working for solutions in
the Middle East than you do.

And it all begins with understanding things, and then forming views as
to what is happening, and then offering recommendations, and then
working to support them.

You are right: shooting one's mouth off is easy, and trivial. That's why
I don't do it.

Are your 'they' the Iranians? Then 'no', I don't see the Iranians
trying to invade the US. And 'yes', they are helping their neighbors
fight against the US invasion. You point out that Iraq invaded Iran --
good point. But it was Saddam who did so, and the Iranians, though they
lost some one million people in that horrible war, do not hold the Iraqi
people responsible. Indeed, at least tens of thousands of Iraqis (mostly
from the Shatt al-Arab marshes), were killed by Saddam because they
resisted his call to war against the Iranians.

With respect, Zap.

Oceans

"Remember back in 1979 when the Iranians under Ayatollah Khomeini took
over the U.S. embassy and held U.S. diplomatic personnel hostage?
Remember how our government portrayed the Iranians as horrible devils
and the U.S. officials as innocent angels? Well, the front page of last
Sunday's New York Times had a full-length expose of what the U.S.
government did in 1953 to precipitate what the Iranian people did 26
years later. Although the CIA, by its own admission, has destroyed many
of its documents relating to its coup that put the Shah of Iran in
power, a secret history of the CIA's role in the sordid affair turned up
in the offices of the Times. The history was written by Dr. Donald L.
Wilber, the CIA's chief coup planner. (For years, the CIA has maintained
that release of the history would jeopardize national security, but so
far the Times story hasn't caused the nation to collapse.) The history
shows how the U.S. government (the world's premier defender of
democracy) ousted Iran's democratically elected prime minister from
power in 1953 and installed the (unelected) shah into power. (The
history does not detail the CIA's participation in the shah's subsequent
reign of terror and torture.) Thus, what we were not told in 1979 was
that the Iranian people were expressing their angry and outrage over the
installation of the CIA's brutal puppet 26 years earlier. Now, if we can
just get the secret histories of CIA involvement in Chile and Guatemala
published, we might just be making some progress toward figuring out why
terrorists all over the world hate the United States."

The C.I.A. and Iran
by Jacob G. Hornberger, April 2000

Before they get to us they'll need Europe, which they are slow getting.
They are woprking on Africa as well. So eventually yes they will if they
manage to consolidate their hold on the above.

Hey, Fanta,

Yes, we do need to know our own history before we will ever really
understand why people react to us the way they do.

There is more to the Iran story. It wasn't just the US secret overthrow
of the Iranian government, though that is pretty fascinating. Kermit
Rossevelt, the CIA covert officer, was the guy who did it. Mossadegh had
just been elected head of the new Iranian Government. Iran was then
openly allied with the UK and USA. But the CIA decided the new man
wouldn't be sufficiently pro-US, and so Roosevelt flew to Tehran and
distributed mucho bucks to various opposition politicians to bring their
people into the streets and overthrow the Government. And things only
got worse since then, 1953.

We backed the Shah to the hilt, even as he became more and more
repressive and hated by the Iranian people. With US CIA and 'School of
the Americas' help, he created SAVAK, an internal secret police force
that imprisoned and tortured tens (hundreds?) thousands of Iranians, and
killed many. The free press that Iranians traditionally enjoyed was shut
down, opposition leaders were killed or exiled. A rule of terror was
imposed on the Iranian people, and they associated it with US support
for the Shah.

Eventually the Shah fled. Cancer-ridden, we was offered medical care and
refuge by President Carter. In my opinion, Carter meant this as a simple
gesture of compassion, but it inflamed the Iranian populace who saw the
Shah as a brutal butcher and wanted him returned to face trial in Iran.
The Shah later moved to Mexico and Egypt, where he died, but the damage
had been done.

Students attacked the US Embassy (not Khomeini, or the Khomeni
government) and seiged the hostages, holding them for 444 days, IIRC.
They were released the moment when President Reagan took the Oath of
Office. Khomeini decided not to confront the students, and the story of
the students-Khomeini discussions is a fascinating one, with a couple of
books published in Iran that detail them. In effect, the hostages became
pawns between the secular young activist students, and the aging
religious mullahs.

I've got one of the books in my library here and can dig up the title
for you if you are interested.

One of the upshots of this was that the students got ahold of the
Embassy burn bags -- before they were burned. Over a period of several
labor-intensive months, the students took the strips of shredded
documents (this was in the days before cross-cutting!) and taped them
back together so that the original documents could be read. Lots of very
embarrassing material came to light, from the State Department, CIA, and
military office cables. They drew a picture of a belated realization of
the Shah's unpopularity and repression, accounts of secret discussions
with opposition leaders, and discussion of military plans to keep the
Shah and SAVAK in business.

It confirmed Iranian suspicions that the US was broadly meddling in
their affairs, and it created an understandable paranoia in Iran about
US motives and actions.

Whew!

Oceans

Zap,
To know how to cure the cancer of evil.
We must realize what created it. Continuing on the same path, we will
never solve the problems.
This addy will take you to an archive of recently declassified CIA
documents. These documents cover Iran, and western interest in the yesr
1952-54. Interesting read if you have the hankering for an open-eyed
view of American dealings in the region.

http://www.foia.ucia.gov/search.asp?pageNumber=4&freqReqRecord=undefined&refinedText=undefined&freqSearchText=undefined&txtSearch=iran%2C+1953+and+shah&exactPhrase=undefined&allWords=undefined&anyWords=undefined&withoutWords=undefined&documentNumber=undefined&startCreatedMonth=&startCreatedDay=&startCreatedYear=&endCreatedMonth=&endCreatedDay=&endCreatedYear=0&startReleasedMonth=&startReleasedDay=&startReleasedYear=&endReleasedMonth=&endReleasedDay=&endReleasedYear=0&sortOrder=DESC

Hi, Hanged Man!

Who is the 'they' you are referring to?

Hey, everybody, I hope you have great plans for the weekend!

Oceans

Damn, zap! That has got to be the longest addy I've ever seen!

Thanks for posting it.

One of the great things about America is that people really do want to
know the truth, and so it is hard for things to stay secret too long.
The press picks up a whiff of something, and off we go with FOIA
requests!

Of course, that doesn't mean we are going tointerpret things all the
same. We will argue, and we will debate -- but the basic thing is that
we do want to know what the hell happened, even if it is embarrassing,
or makes us mad.

pretty great, no?

Oceans

Muslims in general, but among them the radicals.
We've already seen problems in France and England. They killed that van
gough fellow in the Netherlands? they went apes*** over some cartoons.

Sorry can't remember the fellows name.

Thanks, HMan

I'm running right now, and will get back here later.

Have a great evening!

Oceans

Whats up oceans....

Yes, in 1979, I volunteered for military service. I was 19 yrs old and
naive as most are at that age.

Growing up, TV was relatively new. America's great military victories in
Europe, and the forgotten war, which was not such a victory were events
of legend.

Hollywood plastered the screens with heroic battles and popular heroes.
War was glamourized and Americans were the world power with no equal.
The righteous always, never wrong, white hats fighting evil around the
globe..

You know the more I think about this, the more I agree with Karsi.
America is a society bent on war. Anyway, Im rambling...............

When the Iranians attacked our embassy, being a product of this society,
I jumped to arms, patriotic, I knew who the evil enemy were. Just like
so many of these boys today. (no names nec.) I was going to Iraq on my
white horse and kill sand-niggers. (pardon the language)

Then, slowly my eyes opened, as they saw more and more they revealed a
picture of reality that didn't fit my propaganda filled American mind.

So I started to read, more and more, and study about the world. The more
I learned the more I looked. At first to try and find proof that what I
was learning was a lie. I guess denial, and patriotic pride kept me
from wanting to believe. If this was true why didnt they tell me while I
was growing up.
Later, I read and studied to learn more of the truth, because lets face
it the government hides the truth.

Oh well, that was 28 yrs ago. I still see the same re-runs running on,
and on, and on. Some of the cast has changed, new generation of young
naive soldiers, a new president, etc, but the same policies and the same
results. To me it is not hard to understand that these policies aren't
working, and we need to do something different. Otherwise, we can expect
nothing new other than maybe the weapons we will use.

Everyone makes mistake, but if you cant admit them to your self how can
you ever hope to correct them.
Like wise, to keep making the same mistake over and over makes you, some
say stupid, I prefer DUMBASS!!!!!

Yeah, I was there. USS Nimitz (CVN-68) 144 days off the coast of Iran
and through operation Evening Light. I saw the signs the students!?!
were waving. Oddly, some of them must have accidently grabbed signs from
the wrong protest, since they had Khomeni's picture on them. Yes, the
radical Muslims hate us, not only for our support of Israel to exist vs
being pushed into the sea, but because we are the infidels. We live with
dogs. we are materialistic, we don't keep our women in their
"place"..... a myriad of reasons as to why they hate us as they have for
centuries, and I don't simply mean the US, I mean ANYONE who is not
Muslim. The radicals are all over the globe and to think they are
friendly people who are simply angry because of what the evil USA has
done to these poor loving people is utterly absurd. Do you really think
the majority of Iranians agree with their politically correct, anti-war,
free speach, freedom of religion government? How would you like to live
life the way they are forced to? Well pal, they (radical
fundamentalists) would like it. Of course if you did not choose one,
there is the alternative...... Thanks oceans, maybe I don't get it as
far as you see it but I'm good with that. I am free.

Dam that was a lot of writing.....LMAO

Now, I aint doing that again.....

How about, Thats an internal concern for the Iranians.

Why do you think we dont live like that?

Fanta, problems are not always fixed. My point is that a few people in
here sit around flapping their lips, mainly impressing themselves, and
while they are patting themselves on the back for finally figuring out
why the dog turd in their yard stinks, someone has walked by and stepped
in it, creating another dilemma for them. Sheesh! A tug of war
between intellectualism and common sense. One side has to win. Flappy
flappy friggin flappy. Life is as complicated as you make it. Most of us
don't go into mental overload in the cereal aisle at the grocery store.
It's friggin cereal PICK ONE!!! G*D Da**it! Show a friggin spine!
I feel better now.

baddie, bladdie, blah, blah, ha, ha, ho, ho, and
yaddie, yaddie, yah, yah, ya, ya, yo, yo,if you dont believe that go to:
http://killasheia.giveasunni/agun.alla

NOW ya tellen em Fanta,Have you got a drum to bash or a brick wall to
belt ya head against.????