Spider wrote:
“I have already heard your story about how you lost your faith in Jesus”

Well this is incorrect already.

I never lost faith in Jesus. It’s not Jesus’ fault that he was
misunderstood.

Spider wrote:
“The only real information we have about Jesus is in the Bible, but you
reject the Bible, so where do you get your information from?”

Again, you misunderstand. I don’t ‘reject’ the Bible as being an actual
book that was written by men. I simply reject the idea that it is the
inspired word of God.

Understand that Jesus had absolutely nothing at all to do with the
writing of the Bible. That is to say that there is not a single
solitary word in the Bible that was written by Jesus. Jesus was not an
author of the Bible.

The people who wrote about Jesus were his disciples. Every word that
is said about Jesus came from them. Every word that is quoted as having
been spoken by Jesus came from their understanding and memory of his
teachings.

I can easily reject the disciples of Jesus as having misunderstood his
message without any need to reject Jesus himself. The idea that Jesus
was a sacrificial lamb of God did not come from Jesus himself, but from
his disciples misunderstanding of him.

This is how I view the whole historical picture of the New Testament.
It’s not that I reject the book as being completely meaningless. I
believe the disciples of Jesus wrote what they wrote. I also believe
that Jesus lived and taught and was crucified by the Romans. What I
don’t believe is that God sent Jesus as a sacrificial lamb.

I believe that that whole scenario was created in the minds of the
disciples who wrote about the life of Jesus many years after he died.

So I don’t ‘reject’ the Bible. I simply view it in a totally different
light than you do.

I ‘reject’ that it is the verbatim word of God. That’s what I reject.

I don’t believe that God sent a sacrificial lamb to die for the sins of
man so that they could enjoy eternal life in heaven. No, I don’t buy
into that at all. I think that part of the whole story is a distortion
that was written by the disciples of Jesus. It was neither inspired by
God, nor intended as a message from God.

It was inspired by severe oppression by the Roman empire and by the
disciples desperate need for something bigger than life.

This I believe.

It’s not my intent to “bash” anything. Neither the Bible nor Jesus. I’m
just trying to convey what I believe to be true.

I have no desire to take away anyone’s god.

I believe in god in my own way. I was able to denounce the Bible as not
being the word of god without denouncing god himself. I just think of
god differently is all.

Abracadabra,

In your opinion, what was Jesus's message?

Spider you asked me a question...

AdventureBegins,

If you don't accept the Bible, then all you have to go on is that he
died a thiefs death. How does that make someone special?
---------------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure how you will take my answer.

He did not die a thiefs death. They tried to destroy him with death and
could not.

He is special to me because he was the messenger of God foretold by the
prophets. He is special to me because I can feel his presence as I can
feel the presence of the other Prophets.

He is special to me because that which gives the spirit has breathed it
into me that he is special.

The bible is but a book. A Holy Book to be sure but a book none the
less. It is a construct of man made of paper and bindings. You can not
bind the word of god. Nor can you choose what it says. To do so would
limit it and that can not be for the word of god will allways in truth
seek the light of day though it take a thousand years.

In these times those that hold the high places within the manmade
bindings and choosings will begin to pay the price for stealing from
mankind what was ours by right.

An ommision is the same as a lie. In spite of the omissions the word of
god will continue to spread and those that bound it will be subject to
its laws.

What better way to contol a population then to place upon them the need
to reveal thier secrets to you in a closed dark box. Secrets you can
use to your advantage.

AdventureBegins:

Has it been your experience that many preachers/priests/ministers still
deliver their sermons from the pulpit? It's been my experience that
most realize that it elevates them to an untouchable level, creating a
rift between "us and them." The ones I've known who prefer to stay at
the pulpit are generally the ones who are very nervous / self-conscious
or who need to have extensive notes to keep their thoughts
well-organized. My observation has been mostly of Catholic priests, who
spend a lot of time in the seminary learning to deliver effective
homilies and to speak well while building rapport with the congregation.
I've had a little experience in fundamentalist Christian churches, but
only recall once when I became quite agitated by the demeanor of the
minister — a man who clearly (by his words and gestures) saw himself as
so much closer to God than anyone else in attendance. But I figure that
was an exception rather than the rule.

So, I'm just wondering if your overall experience has been considerably
different from mine.

Spider wrote:
“In your opinion, what was Jesus's message?”

Love, tolerance, non-judgment, recognizing that everyone is your
brother, even those you see as enemies.

Showing respect for everyone regardless of their social status, material
wealth, or because of their beliefs.

He was basically teaching the same things that an Eastern Mystic would
teach. It was a spiritual message in the same way that it is a
spiritual message for a Mystic.

It’s not what you believe, but how you act in this life that is
important to a Mystic.

You need to put this in historical context also.

Jesus was living in very oppressed times. It was hard for people not to
hate the Romans. It was hard for the people not to hate the tax
collectors who were collecting taxes for the Romans. Taxation without
representation. The Jewish people were being extremely oppressed and
humiliated by the Romans in many ways. This angered them, and they
would take their anger out on each other. It was just an angry society.

Jesus was trying to calm the anger. He accrued quite a following and he
finally stood up to the Romans oppression in the Temple. I personally
believe that Jesus was hoping that the people would also rise up and
rebel and stand up for their dignity. But they abandon him and did not
stand with him.

I believe that Jesus’ message was not unlike the message that Dr. Martin
Luther King Jr. delivered in America on civil rights. In fact, Rev.
King actually relied on Jesus to help him preach his message.

The only real difference was that Jesus was crucified on a cross by the
Romans, and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was shot in the throat with a
bullet.

Jesus was both a passive civil rights activist, and a spiritual leader.

This I believe.

So when I say that Jesus was ‘just a man’ I don’t mean to imply in any
way that he was not a ‘great man’. I believe that he most certainly was
a great man. I would bow down to him just for the man that he was. I
would do no less for Rev. King.

I guess religious fanatics are kind of like some ex-smokers and
ex-drinker..

Always "Holier Than Thou"! And very inflexible and arrogant..

Are you related to Thor, Bibby?

(ha ha)

Bob you brought up an interesting point that I really love about my
Narcotics Anonymous meetings. From page 13 of Chapter 13 of Why Are We
Here we have this.

"After coming to N.A. we realized we were sick people. We suffered from
a disease from which there is no known cure. It can, however, be
arrested at some point, and then recovery is then possible."

It is part of our basic text that we read before each meeting. The fun
part for the group is when we get to the word 'sick' we all say it
together.

Chapter 3, I mean. Like who cares, lol?

I guess we all have our own doxologies.