The Lord’s Prayer language shifts
PLEASE, read the following and add your comments to the two questions posed at the end.
Thanks!

Middle English (about 1400)

Oure fadir that art in heuene halowid be thi name,
Thi kingdom come to, be thi wille don in erthe es in
Heuene, yeue to us this day oure bread ouir other
Substance, & foryeue to us oure dettis, as we forgeuen
To oure dettouris, & lede us not in temptacion: but
Belyuer us from yuel, amen.

Early Modern English (1611)

Our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy
Name. Thy kingdome come. They will be done, in
Earth, as it is in heaven. Biue vs this day our dayly
Bread. And forgiue vs our debts, as we forgiue our
Debters. And leade vs not into temptation, but
Deliuer vs from euill: For thine is the kingdome,
And the power, and the glory, for euer, Amen.

Contemporary English

Our Father, who is in heaven, may your name be kept
Holy. May your kingdom come into being. May your
Will be followed on earth, just as it is in heaven. Give
Us this day our food for the day. And forgive us our
Offenses, just as we forgive those who have offended
Us. And do not bring us to the test. But free us from
Evil. For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are
Yours forever. Amen.

http://www.global.org/Pub/LordsPrayer.asp
21 other versions – including the various “updated, new and improved, and just plain ‘ol easy reading” Bible reditions can be seen at the above website.


NOW FOR THE DISCUSSION POINTS:

This short prayer, of less than 100 words (including two letter words), exemplifies how one language (English) can drastically change in less than 600 years. Even the words used change to reflect cultural changes which directly influence their meaning. The word “debts” appears in versions of the prayer as “offenses” and other cases as “sins”.

This has occurred in a single language, the only translations have been in cultural adaptation and it only represents less than 100 words.

QUESTIONS:

Do you believe that people reading any current Bible are actually reading the “unchanged” and “literal translations” of the most ancient scriptures?

AND

Do you think Biblical “meaning”, and therefore beliefs, will continue to evolve as languages continue to adapt to changing cultures?

The only way to really understand what it says is to read it as close to the way it was originally written as possible. Which entails going out and doing the translations from the oldest documents available, but even then you are only getting that authors interpretation of the events he describes.

It matters naugth to me as I don't believe these ancient mythologies have anything to do with the creator of this universe anyway.

It seems like a well-intentioned prayer. If the man named Jesus actually offered something along these lines I'm sure he meant it as an abstract example anyway, and never meant for it to be adhered to verbatim.

Moreover, seeing that everything that was written about Jesus was written from memory at least a half-a-century or more after his death, I would have very little faith that the words are a verbatim account of what Jesus had actually proposed in any case.

Finally, if there is an intelligent creator, I'm convinced that he/she/it would be far more impressed by people who have good intentions than by people who repeat rote prayers.

I also believe that one of the foundational purposes of these kinds of prayers are not to speak to God at all, but rather to remind the one who is doing the praying to hold to these values.

It's a very cleverly designed prayer,...

"Please forgive us as we forgive those,..."

Yep, getting people to ask their creator to judge them as they judge others is always a good thought to put in their minds.

Some people think this way automatically and have no need to repeat these kind of reminding prayers. They are often referred to as 'atheists' and frowned upon by the same peple who ask God not to frown on them as they do not frown on others.

Preaching has occurred since mankind probably has existed. Someone always has to be a leader that can influence groups to do his or her tidings. These prayers or preachings is a way to bring people together and recite words in a unison way to bring harmony and agreement. Sometimes just to keep control also for the leader. Preachers know that this brings people together and come up with some of the most creative prayers or recitals one can practice together.

It is a type of poetry.

What is sad is that many don't understand when groups recite together that it can become dangerous and harmful to those who don't practice or agree with the words a leader created bringing judgement to the nonfollower. This leads to unwelcomed and harmful judgements towards the nonbeliever.

For many years such prayers as you describe above where enforced as a must practice to many children before going to bed, having a meal, or even for each special event. If one doesn't do them then one is possessed by somekind of demon or are judged as not sane or normal to the wishes of their belief system.

It is too bad that this practice still occurs in various religions and it looks like there will never be an end to it.

I hope one day that mankind will not be so judgemental when someone has a different idealogy of what they deem to find satsifying to their soul or beliefsystem.

As a matter of fact, I believe it would be beneficial that one would show interest in different cultures with different practices to ensure a peaceful coexistence.

Boy ain't that the truth.

The masters Prayer has never been meant as something you recite as agroup or chant.. Yahshua spoke against this practice. Yet this is often how it is done.

This is a real short version of Isaiah 58.

If you understand what Isaiah 58 is talking about then it is easy to understand that Yahshua brought nothing new.

The Diciples would of understood the principles for it.


Shalom...Miles Isa 58:1

"Shout it aloud, do not hold back.Raise your voice like a trumpet.Declare to my people their rebellion and to the house of Jacob their sins. 2 For day after day they seek me out;they seem eager to know my ways,as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its Elohim.They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for Elohim to come near them. 3'Why have we fasted,' they say,'and you have not seen it?Why have we humbled ourselves,and you have not noticed?'
"Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit all your workers. 4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,and in striking each other with wicked fists.You cannot fast as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,only a day for a man to humble himself?Is it only for bowing one's head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and ashes?Is that what you call a fast,a day acceptable to Yahweh?
6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke,to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? 7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter — when you see the naked, to clothe him,and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? 8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,and your healing will quickly appear;then your righteousness will go before you,and the glory of Yahweh will be your rear guard. 9 Then you will call, and Yahweh will answer;you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
"If you do away with the yoke of oppression,with the pointing finger and malicious talk, 10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,then your light will rise in the darkness,and your night will become like the noonday. 11 Yahweh will guide you always;he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame.You will be like a well-watered garden,like a spring whose waters never fail. 12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations;you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.
13 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day,if you call the Sabbath a delight and Yahweh's holy day honorable,and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, 14 then you will find your joy in Yahweh,and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of Yahweh has spoken.

NIV

The problem is we threw out the baby with the bath water.

Yahshua Declared this with his 1st words in the temple after Baptism.

Luke 4:18-19

18 "The Spirit of Yahweh is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of Yahweh's favor."
NIV

The exact same thing we are to proclaim

I hope I am going with the flow of this topic so here goes: At the end of my late husband's graveside service I asked that we all say The Lord's Prayer. What a scream that turned out to be! We got to the "forgive us our debtors/trespasses" part and some said debtors while others said trespasses and it trailed off into oblivion somewhere.

Katzen - I'm sorry such a solemn time was disrupted in that way. I will admit, I did find your story slightly amusing.

Perhaps there's a lesson here - perhaps religion was never meant to be a social event, but a private one. Maybe people should be given a few moments of silence in which to conduct their own 'unspoken' prayers.

Oh, it was amusing later. In fact the whole thing got bigger in my head as time went on. It sounded like a bunch of people mumbling to themselves. I could just imagine God hitting His forehead with His palm. But, He loves us.

For an interesting interpretation I suggest Emmett Fox.

http://aztlan.net/lordsprayer.htm

Shalom Red and Blessing To Ya.

If you pick up any bible from any store that is not from a Biblical Institute you will not read the words of the Bible in the contexts or the words they were.

The ministers do not want these Bibles printed because the people would have to many questions.

They prefer Traditions over the Word of Yahweh.

Just like the Pharasees Yahshua scolded.

Yet with a good Bible program you can have a mass of volumes of books into the original languages.


Takes a lot of searching though.


Just like the easy one that tradition refuses to change is Yahweh taking the rib of Adam and making Eve.

Then it says he had to sew him up.

Now why would the creater have to close Adam up from taking a rib from him when he made hime from the dust of the earth?

Else where it says if Yahweh wills it it happens then and now.

People refuse to look into this question when it is a Beautiful answer.

A man is to take a wife and the 2 become 1. We have heard this over and over.


What does a rib have to do with it?


The Paleo Hebrew word which is old Hebrew is the Word "Tesla"

To understand hebrew words you must take how the scribes translated it in all the other places and what was going on.


The word Tesla simply means "Chamber. Hollow ect." This is how Tesla is translated in almost every place in the Bible.

Now lets get back to Adam. "Tesla" was taken from him and given to Eve Then Yahweh sewed Adam Back up.

Still why the sewing?

I am going to jump to something Yahshua said that is very tale taling about when Adam was Made.

If you remember a woman who had , had 7 husbands it was asked, in the Ressurrection which Husband will she have.

Yahshua then says you are greatly mistaken for in the Ressurrection thier is no Marraige given, that we will be like the Angels.

This is called a Mystery because the 2 become 1 in Marraige then when transformed. Thier is no Male or Female Angel seen or spoken of in the Bible.

We also know that No angel is spoke of in the Femine.


This is where the 2 become 1 as in the Beginning as Yahshua said.


It also tells the man he is over his household and his covering covers his wife whether she is a believer or else thier children would be unclean.


So now we know we know of no female Angels.

We also know the man covers his family meaning he is responcible up to death for them.


The Marraige ceremony the way it is meant to be done is completely oppisite what we do now but that is another subject.



I bet you are getting what I am say by now Red.



Adam was created with a womb. Just like the Angels no need of marraige we are all the same but with the best of both worlds in us as 2 become 1.



This is why Adam was Sewed up. His womb was taken from him and the beauty of it is when they come together in marraige the 2 do become 1 as they need each other to be complete. You do not have to get married but most marry. Some Marry Yahweh in spirit to do his will with out any distaractions from family life.. A great Calling.


Tesla in almost every instance is translated "Chamber, Hollow" but for some reason Adam it was translated Rib.

No justification for it at all.

But the 2 becoming 1 will happen in the Ressurrection and then we will be like the Angels.

What a Blessing. If we will only believe the word and not fight against it because Tradition Rules when it is dead wrong.. Blessings of Shalom,Red...Miles

Here is someone who uses the ancient scriptures.

http://www.pastormelissascott.com/

About Pastor Melissa


Employing a research-laden approach to the analysis of God's Word in the Old and New Testaments, Pastor Melissa Scott unfolds and presents her teaching in context with history and the sciences.

A natural linguist with command of twenty languages, she digs deeply into her vast collection of ancient manuscripts to find and communicate the purest understanding of what the original inspired writers of the Bible had to say.

To answere the forums questions,
I believe the Holy Bible is in a form that is for this time.

Shalom Miles,

Very interesting, a usual. It never ceases to amaze me that that there can be so much diversity of thought when it come to interpreting the Bible. But most of those people are just interpreting the same readings in different ways. You, on the other hand, provide a "different" reading with an interpretation that seems more consistant with your belief. This is why I always enjoy reading your views -- even when we have a differnt ethical opinion.

Thanks for your input. Can I ask you a question related to my original post -- If enough people belive the wrong things, based on wrong information, how long before the original belief is non-existent?



John7771 - thanks for the inforamtion. I will have to check out the web you posted. I think to be a (transcribing) linquist would have to require great ethics (to be honest,forthright,and unbiased) a huge capacity for knowledge of history, a superior ability to write scientifically, and a desire to reveal knowledge which is greater than then the need to justify their faith. For this reason I am always most skeptical of those who claim to translate ancient writing (of any kind)as completely accurate.

Shalom Red. I very much enjoy corresponding with you as you look at it with an open mind.

The traditions of men has made people believe that Ministers are the final word on the matter.

If they say it then it must be.

But that also goes against scripture.

Why?

We are Told to study to show yourself approved.

Again why study?

That you will be able to tell everyone the Hope you believe in.

Simple question and answer.

Then thier is Prophecy.

When the Holy spirit comes we are told nieghbor will not ask neighbor for from the least of them they will know Yahweh.

We here all the times about speaking in Tongues is a sign.

What sign?

Speaking the wonderfull words of Yahweh and the miracle is not the speaking it is the hearing.

I am getting to your question.. You know me I give background to a subject.

It also says Faith comes by Hearing.

Thats what happened on Pentecost when all heard in thier own language the wonderful words of Yahweh.

The Disciples were not filled with tongues as they were in unison.

All together.

The faith that came to these men as they even said it themselves.

How can i hear my native language when these men are unlearned.

Thier minds were open to here and the spirit was saying or translating in thier own minds as each need be.

A very special day indeed.

So we have several things hear that is prophecied.

Man will not teach man because the Holy Spirit will teach them.


You are told to study and as you study you will understand the word.

The Holy Spirit teaching them as we are told.

We are also told at the end thier will be a famine of the word.

How are people going to believe and understand?

Those who have believed they did not need man to teach them but as they read the Holy Spirit has shown them mysteries of the Scriptures.


I have no training but believing the Spirit will teach me as the word says.

Yet people do not want to believe someone can do that. The Bible is to hard to understand.

Now when I am questioned on here and by others something happens and I know the answer and i could not of told you where it was before.

Thier are only a few thousand of us. Almost every single one is self taught and we agree.

How can that be unless we were taught by the same teacher because we Believe as Abraham did and the Holy Spirit has come upon us.


Yahshua was asked a question.. Master when will you come back to us.

Yahshua said when everyone in the 4 corners of the world has heard this message of the Evangel the it will be time.


So we have a huge problem.

With over 1000 different denominations and sects who is preaching this Evangel that will be taught at the end when thier will be a Famine of the word?


Yahweh see everyone as equal. Everyone can learn if they will believe and choose to do so.

Is anyone teaching this end time message?

What is the True Message to be preached from followers/Disciples?


They have to agree for 1.

They have to know the scriptures better than anyone else putting todays scholars to shame.


This is the sword Yahshua said he gave us. The sword of Faith that nothing can change us and the helmet of Righteousness that many will run from hating our words.

Then we see in Zecharius 2 olive tree's standing before the Throne of Yahweh.

Waiting for thier task to come.

Rev 11 says these 2 witnesses are these 2 olive trees who has been given power over satan and the Anti-messiah a hedge so to speak.

Remember Job his hedge was taken away and Yahweh knew Jobs heart and that Satan could not change him.

These 2 witnesses will for 3 and 1/2 years travel the globe preaching the Good Tidings that awaits them and also they will be warning those who refuse the possible wrath to come to them.

Some will make it that are unbelievers and will have to learn maybe through the sacraficing of Animals as they Rejected the Precious Blood of Yahshua.


If you read on in Rev 11 they are allowed to be killed by Satan and the Anti-messiah.

The world hates these 2 Saints of Yahweh so much that they display thier Dead Bodies in Jerusalem for all to see and all over the worlld people are partying and sending gifts to each other as thier Tormenters have been killed.


Pretty wierd and pretty serious stuff that will happen.


Then 3 days later they come alive and a voice from Heaven calls out for them to come up.


Seeing the Ressurrection all over again.

All over the World except Satan has a short time to bring chaos on the world and build his armies.


This is the sign people all over the world will see as a witness that thier is life after Death and Yahshua is for real.

3 days was also Yahshua's sign that he would be in the heart of the earth or physically dead just as now the 2 witnesses have witnessed to the world.


Yahweh says he is equal to all men.As in Yahshua's time the ressurrection was proof when he came back and doubting Thomas had to stick his finger in to know it was him.


The word has been preached for 3 1/2 years for all the world to see now will they believe even if one is raised from the dead?



Some will and i hope many see what has happened for thousands of years.

Yes Red The Bible will basically be non existant.

But you can not take it from mens Hearts..

Blessings of Shalom and Happiness Always Red...Miles

PRAYER SHOULD BE FROM THE HEART, FOR THE OVERFLOW OF THE HEART THE MOUTH SPEAKS,,,,, GOD ALREADY KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON WITH US ANYWAY

DON'T LET THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION, CONFUSE US !!! THE BATTLE STARTS IN THE MIND,,,,, IT'S ALREADY BEEN WORKED OUT,,, JUST WALK IN IT !!!!

Like other threads this one is leading me off-topic.

Thanks for your responce Miles. I think I'd like to share something here. I have always thought that the worlds religions have been a good and valuable source of morals.

I don't think anyone knows for sure if any code of ethics could continure for long without the kind of faith that exists in the hearts of 'believers'.

At the same time those who make religion a systematic thing which should apply to everyone, destroys the best part of what faith is all about.

I think, no matter the philosophy, the best way to keep it alive, to keep it valid and useful is to model it. To speak softly, to share without expecting a shared belief in return. Like planting seeds, it is done with care, with hope and with joy, even if the only fruit the seed bares is that others value those shared morals that best serve humanity as a whole.

Your heart is in the right place.. Blessings..Miles