When Jesus was arrested, tortured and eventually executed, his disciples
were devestated. They locked themselves into a room to mourn. They
were mourning not just that they had lost a friend, they had lost their
faith. They had seen Jesus heal the sick and raise the dead, but now it
was Jesus who was dead and they felt they shouldn't have placed their
faith in Jesus. When Mary arrived to tell them that Jesus was alive,
they didn't believe her. To them, watching Jesus die had proved that he
wasn't the Messiah. When Jesus walked through that locked door, they
couldn't believe their own eyes. Thomas had to stick his fingers
through the holes in Jesus's hands and into his side, before he would
believe.

Let's say you deny that Jesus was resurrected, then I ask you this. Why
would a group of men who had already been proven to be cowards, claim
that Jesus was the Messiah if they knew it would result in their own
deaths? Jesus had already been murdered for making that claim, they
knew what their own fate would be. Each one of them were murdered,
except for John. Something happened in that room that turn a group of
11 cowards into evangelists, thus catapulting Christianity from a small
cult into the largest religion in the world.

===========================================================================================

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, dragged by horses through the streets
until he was dead.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the
lost.

John was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of
persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death.
John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos
where he wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation. The Apostle John was
later freed and returned to serve as a bishop in modern Turkey. He died
an old man, the only Apostle to die peacefully.

Peter,was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to
Church tradition, because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy
to die the same way that Jesus Christ had died.

James the Just, the leader of the Church in Jerusalem and brother of
Jesus, was thrown down more than a hundred feet from the southeast
pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When
they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to
death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had
taken Jesus during the Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus
called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the Church,
James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman soldier who
guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial.
Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution.
Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt
beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also known as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He
witnessed about our Lord in present day Turkey. He was whipped to death
for his preaching in Armenia.

Thomas was speared and died on one of his missionary trips to establish
the Church in India.

Jude, another brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows after refusing to
deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the Apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was
stoned and beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, was stoned to death at
Salonica.

Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in
A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write
his many epistles to the Churches he had formed throughout the Roman
Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines
of Christianity, from a large portion of the New Testament.

Whilst you’re asking ‘Why?’, about asking yourself this,…

Why would a god reveal himself to a select few people and then send them
out into the world to preach the gospel knowing full-well that they will
be persecuted for their beliefs?

To me, this is a very sick picture of god.

This whole dogmatic religion pits believers against non-believer. “Us
against them”. It’s an extremely confrontational, accusation, and
intolerant religion.

There just no way that I can believe that god would want to play such
petty games with humanity.

The whole picture just makes no sense to me at all.

When I ask why, I have to ask why god would be like that in the first
place. And my answer is simple. No all-loving god would pit humans
against each other in such a pathetic way.

If I can be convinced of anything I can only be convinced that an
all-loving god would NOT want men to be pitting themselves against each
other based on whether or not they believe in the stories of a
particular dogma.

No way will you ever convince me that god is like that.

True peace comes when you know thier is a life after this. beleiving
so strongly they gladly gave thier life as did stephen...

Acts 7:51-8:1

"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist
the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the
prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who
foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the
betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction
of angels and have not kept it."

54 Stephen the Martyr


When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they
gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy
Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of Yahweh, and Yahshua
standing at the right hand of Yahweh, 56 and said, "Look! I see the
heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of Yahweh!"

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at
him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned
him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young
man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on Elohim
and saying, "Master Yahshua, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down
and cried out with a loud voice,"Master, do not charge them with this
sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


NKJV
Great faith had Stephen forgiving as he was being put to death the same
as the messiah Yahshua. The Lamb of Yahweh. miles

I am curious abradabra, what is your picture of God and what He would
and wouldn't do for you? What, in your sinful nature would it take for
Him to save you from your sins, or anyone else for that matter, so that
you would be able to go to Heaven or wherever you think you go after you
die, and be able to look upon His face?

To me god is this universe.

God’s love is unconditional.

There is no such thing as sin.

Nothing to be saved from.

No heaven above.

No hell below.

Just eternal being.

This life is but one of many.

Sin:
A deliberate transgression of MORAL or religious law.

something considered immoral, shameful, or wrong.

To commit an offense or violation.

To violate religious or moral law.

Now it seems that a "sin" is not just a word for religious wrongs, but
of the laws of man.

So, how can there be no such thing as sin?
Kat

There are always semantic problems aren’t there?

I really meant that there’s no ‘sin’ in the dogmatic sense of the Bible.

I agree that there are things that are not ‘good’ to do, but I also
believe that the many people who believe in god the way I do have no
problem knowing what’s ‘good’ and what’s not. There are many atheists
who also have very high morals thus proving that the concept of
religious ‘sin’ is not necessary for moral values.

I think Redykeulous is a perfect example. She also reveres the
universe. She doesn’t think of it as being her eternal quintessence.
She believes that when her physical body ceases to function her
spiritual essence will also fade into oblivion. Yet she has extremely
high morals. How can an atheist believe in ‘sin’? What keeps her on
the ‘straight-and-narrow-path’? Her love of nature and humanity will
suffice. She doesn’t think in terms of ‘sin’.

I give you the thoughts of Albert Einstein who also viewed the universe
as god.

”A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment
and hope of reward after death.” - Albert Einstein

If a person believes that the universe is god. Then everything in the
universe is also god. To do damage to the universe or anything in it
would be to do damage to god. I suppose a person could argue then that
to do anything bad with respect to the universe or anything in it could
be considered to be ‘sinful’. Perhaps sin does exist in that respect.

Abra, will you please ask your god to quit killing us with all these
tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. I mean, what kind of
uncoditional love is he demonstrateing?

Sorry, coulding resist.

'For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that
whosoever beliveth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life'
John 3:16

Oh, the answer to your question, Spider is.....LOVE.


Peace Love Joy

Again, as Abra puts it, why would God persue such tests, both on an
individual basis and within a society?

The faithful say, it is the only way to test your belief.

Why must our belief be tested? When God cast out Adam and Eve from the
Garden of "knowing", why did all humans suddenly inherit this awful
requirement of 'test'?

Do we not suffer enough through this life. A life God gave us and
expects us to endure. Is there ANY SINGLE CHRISTIAN who can say, they
never had one minute of suffering BECAUSE, they had such great faith,
and so were saved from the misery that seems inevitable to the nature of
any physical being?

i reckon john 3:16 solves everthing thats wrong with the world.
its an easy cop out for people who are riddled and need a crutch to
lean on.

‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that
whosoever beliveth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life'
John 3:16

So Redykeulous is right then. When she dies she will merely perish.

Or is it good enough that she believes in the same moral values as
Jesus?

I never was quite clear on the Interpretation of John 3:16. What does
it mean to believe on Jesus? To believe that he was the one and only
incarnation of god? Or to believe in and follow his philosophy of love?
Which seems more important?

I personally believe it should mean the latter, but then who knows what
John had in mind when he wrote those words? John obviously had his own
picture of god, most likely thinking of god as an external entity in the
sky since that was the popular view at that time in his culture.

Thank you Abra. I was merely pointing out that "sin" is not just a
biblical issue. It is also a moral one.

Morals are at an all time low. "Sin" abounds.

Kat

Kat wrote:
“Morals are at an all time low. ‘Sin’ abounds”

Do you really feel that way?

I don’t.

Moreover, if sin abounds in the USA which is approximately 85%
Christianity then what’s that say about the effectiveness of that
religion for teaching morals?

I don’t know about your area, but everywhere I’ve ever been in the USA I
don’t think I can drive more than a few miles at best without seeing a
Christian church.

I’d say that Christianity has had more than an overwhelming opportunity
to prove itself as an effective source of morals and has instead fallen
flat on its face right into the mud.

If sin abounds in the USA perhaps it’s *because* of the religion we’ve
chosen. In fact, why should anyone think otherwise?

Nothing like lack of accountability, I always say.

Sheila wrote:
"Nothing like lack of accountability, I always say"

What’s accountability?

Redykeulous is holds herself accountable to the universe and everything
in it.

Einstein holds himself accountable to his follow man.

I hold myself accountable to god which I view as the universe.

Does there need to be a threat of punishment or a carrot of reward to
lure a person to accountability?

Seems to me, that if you need to be made to fear punishishment or be
lured by a reward of eternal life you aren’t being accountable for
anything but your own hide.

That's an "every man for himself" type of accountability.

You have a choice, take the smooth, wide path and walk off a cliff or
take the narrow difficult path and get to the top of the mountain. God
is standing on top of the mountain waiting for you, calling to you. God
has given you a map to get to the top and you have a compass that always
points to the mountain top. If you choose the smooth, wide path,
because it's easier on your feet and you don't get tired, that's not
God's fault.

spider no offense, but you have some very out there posts... that are
just out there lol.. im beginning to wonder about you..

sororitygurl4life wrote:

spider no offense, but you have some very out there posts... that are
just out there lol.. im beginning to wonder about you..

=============================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

No offense at all. I will say this, you need to stop being so literal
and look for the spiritual meanings in the things I say.

1 Corinthians 2:14
--------------------------------------------------------------
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for
they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they
are spiritually appraised.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Spider wrote:
“If you choose the smooth, wide path, because it's easier on your feet
and you don't get tired, that's not God's fault.”

I have to agree with Sororitygurl. I have no idea what you are talking
about Spider.

I can’t imagine having any higher moral values than I already have. So
your statement about a ‘smooth wide path because it’s easier on your
feet’ doesn’t even make any sense at all.

Surely you’re not suggesting that God should be some kind of a burden?