Yes perhaps that is true also. Humans are just plain ugly

thank goodness I am a draconian

i think you would be surprised that I'm not unique in this. are there people out here that give religions (of whatever belief) bad names??? OF COURSE. i haven't denied this. i could only account for me and my actions

History has shown us without a doubt that religion has indeed been used by very devout religous people to create a situation where the masses have been incited to commit atrocities in the name of Jesus Christ Almighty.

There can be no doubt about this. It's a fact of history. The Malleus Maleficarum was written by devout religious men using the "Holy Bible" as a guide. Moreover, it wasn't merely their belief in Jesus that drove them to this madness, but a much firmer belief in Satan!

This is one problem with the religion. It makes no sense to believe in Jesus without also beliving in Satan. They go hand in hand. Jesus has no meaning outside of Satan. Without Satan Jesus would have no meaning. Satan gives meaning to Jesus (at least as the biblical stories go). In other words to believe that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham, one must also believe in the God of Abraham and his war with Satan (which according to the Bible and particularlly the book of Job is more of a casino gambling game than a war)

In any case, the Malleus Maleficarum was clearly modeled after the stories of the Bible and it's major plot that some fallen angel named Satan does indeed possess people's souls and can even bargain with them and purchase their sould on a lay-away plan.

It's truly insane. Yet these idea clearly come straight from the Bible there would be no other motivation for this maddess! Christians like to focus on Jesus, but they fail to realize that they are also supporting the idea of Satan when the support this religion. Jesus and Satan are inseperable from a biblical point of view (based on the idea that Jesus is the son of the God of Abraham). You can't believe in Jesus without also believing in Satan. It would make no sense to only believe half of the story.

I've always said that evangelists are truly misrepresenting the religion when they ask people to accept Jesus as their 'savior'. That's only HALF the story! In fact BEFORE a person can accept Jesus as their 'savior' they must FIRST accept Satan as their demon!

Satan must come FIRST, without a belief in Satan there is nothing to be 'saved' from. Jesus is meaningless in the biblical picture as the 'son of the God of Abraham' if it weren't for Satan. Satan makes the story possible and gives is credence. Without Satan the whole thing falls apart. He's just as important to this mythology as any other character that is portrayed within it.

Christains don't like that kind of talk, but take Satan out of the Bible and there's no story left to tell.

Moreover, it was clearly a FEAR of Satan that drove religious men into writing the Malleus Maleficarum. Yet it can't be denied that this is a crucial part of this religion! Christians really need to recoginze that they are 'worshipping' Satan just as much as any other character in their religion whether they realize it or not. To merely recognize a belief in and respect for (of FEAR of) Satan is to worship the demon. There's no two ways about it.

So we know that 300 YEARS of 'witch burnings' took place solely BECAUSE of the existence of this religion!

And we also have historical records that show that many of those so-called 'witches' were actually innocent midwive who in many cases were actually Christians themselves!

In fact, even some male priests and preachers were burned to death doing these times. All in the name of Jesus (or Satan) however you want to view it. Either name is equally responsible.

In fact, I hold that this very historical event is PROOF POSITIVE that the intervening God of Abraham does not exist or that Jesus was not the son of this God.

How is this proof you may ask?

Well, it's quite simple really.

The idea is that God is benevolent, all-wise, and all-compassionate, and he can intervene because he is also all-powerful and with God all things are possible.

Well, if we take all of that into consideration let's see what we have:

1. God intervenes through inspiration to have a book written that explains what he wants from men.

2. In that book there are many stories of God actually speaking to people.

Sometimes he shows up as a burning bush, other times he shows up as a whirlwind, still other times he sends angels with wings to deliver his messages.

Clearly this is a story of a God who can intervene.

So what's next?

Well, God sees men who are devotely religious and believe in him and his son and they are beginning to write the Malleus Maleficarum which surely God must know is going to greatly undermine and confuse his original story book.

What does this intervening God do?

NOTHING!

He doesn't inspire these men to quit writing this book. He doesn't send angels to tell them that this is not God's plan. God does NOTHING to intervene or even try to disuade these men from writing and publishing this book. A book that historically had a publication rate in it's time that was only surpassed by the Bible itself.

In those days that Malleus Malelifcarum was actually viewed as a 'supplement' to the Bible divinly inspired by religious men!

God did nothing to intervene and educate his very own devout worshipers?

God just sat back for 300 years allowing tens of thousands of women to be tortured and burned alive in the name of Jesus (and Satan)?

What kind of a God would do such a thing?

What kind of a God would allow his very own devout worshipers commit such horrible atrocities in his name without intervening at least through divine inspiration if in no other way?

The mere fact that no God intervened when such atrocities were being commited by his devout followers in his name is proof positive that no such intervening God exists.

A similar argument could be made for the holocaust in Germany. People will argue that one on the grounds that Hitler himself was mentally ill. But if God can intervene he should have either cured Hilter's mental illness, or given him a polite heart attack early in his career before he attained power.

It just makes no sense at all for an intervening God to not intervene when his very own devout followers are being convinced to do atrocities in his name or even based on his book.

After all, an intervening God who can actually inspire people to write a rule book has a responsiblity to be sure that his book is understood.

It makes no sense at all for an intervening God to not intervene when people are doing bad things in his name and believing that they are serving HIS WILL.

That would be an irresponsible God IMHO.

So the fact that this religion has been used for atrocities repeatly from the mass murdering of the Cathers, the Burning Times, the Crusades, and the Holocaust (which may not have been authorized by the church but was certainly motivated by anti-semitism which is clearly biblically motivated)

As far as I'm concerned all of this proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that this mythical intervening God does not exist.

I'm about to leave for work soon so I wanted to post this for what it's worth

I can't speak for anyone else...only myself
To me a Christian is someone that follows Jesus' teaching (even according to the dictionary). the things I try to follow are things like:
Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
John 8:7 "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
Matt 10:14 "If no one welcomes you or listens to your words, as you leave that house or town, shake its dust off your feet."

the 3rd means to me...don't force your beliefs.

do I always practice these??? no....i'm not perfect. i regret if i don't follow these and try to make ammends

IMO...this is common sense/courtesy...which I know these days aren't that common anymore to many people

Well just for the record I never hold it against an individual for being a 'Christian'. It's the doctrine that it's based on that I denounce.

As far as I'm concerned the things that you've just mentioned above of the same things that Buddha taught. So you could be a Buddhist and have the same moral values that you have. There was nothing unique in the moral values that Jesus was said to have taught.

And like you say, for many of us it's just common sense.

Even when I was a Christian I found this a bit strange. The reason being that I would read or be taught the moral values that Jesus supposedly stood for and think to myself, "Hey that guy thinks like me!"

It's pretty hard to FOLLOW someone who already thinks the same way that you do. How can you FOLLOW your very own footsteps?

In truth I think it's really sad that there are actually people out there who would not normally behave in the way that Jesus taught. Or people who actually have a desire to judge others and do harm to others.

Yet, I know the world is full of people who are like that. I suppose if a religion can make those people straighten up then it might be worth something. It's a shame that people can't place their trust in mere mortal men.

Many people from the west don't care what Buddha had to say simply becasue he was a mortal man. They feel that Buddha's teachings are just the opinion of a mere man.

However, people pay attention to Jesus, even though he taught precisely the same things as Buddha, simply becasue they feel that he speaks with the authority of God.

In fact, I've heard many Christians claim that if Jesus wasn't God they'd crucify him all over gain for lying. They have absolutely no repsect for mortal men!

When asked why they reply that this would mean that his promise of eternal life would then be a sham. So clearly they're only interested in the prize, (or possibly fear the potential eternal damnation). There never seems to be a middle of the road for Christians, you either God to nirvana, or hell, but there's no such thing as just dying and ceasing to exist.

To me that's just another indication that the whole thing is nothing more than a brainwashing scheme that was created by a very ruthless and heartless culture. They wanted to make sure that everyone is motivated by either the excitment of a promise of eternal bliss, or if you can't get excited about that will threaten you with eternal damnation. No other OPTIONS!

To give mere death to non-believer would not be enough incentive to scare them into believing. They need to be THREATENED with eternal damnation!

I think the mere fact that they went overboard with that is just yet another clue that the authors of the Bible were mortal men with an agenda. I just don't believe that any divine being would be so hostile toward the objects of his very own creation.

In fact, that would actualy be pretty nasty to create someone, given them a rational brain, an irrational book, and then condemn them to eternal damantion if they didn't IGNORE their rational brain and place their faith in a totally IRRATIONAL book!

That would actually be a pretty nasty thing to do to people I think. There would be nothing divine about that scheme whatsoever.

So my bone is not with the people who want to love Jesus. I can actually see why many people would love Jesus, he actually DENOUNCED much of the violence that had been taught by the Old Testament and the supposed God of Abraham.

How people could ever be convinced that he was the son of that God is truly beyond my comprehension.

And to believe that just because people don't buy it means that they will be sent to eternal damnation only makes the God of Abraham appear to be even more vile and vicious.

You just can't have a supposedly compassionate God condemning people to hell for not believing in such absurdities.

That's makes no sense at all.

abra....that is your right to believe
it is sad that there are people out there like this but it's not exclusive to one belief or religion, policital belief, whatever

it should be common sense but then again it's not common these days

abra...we have talked in the past. believe me...i understand what you are saying. so i'm not going to judge you or others for it. i have been there done that with alot of things in my life. my belief is MY belief. it is what works for me.

we are all on this earth and it makes it easier to understand what others think whether i agree or not....at least i can try to understand what makes people "tick". makes me look at myself to see what makes me "tick"

sometimes my clock is wound too tight lol....but at least i can admit it

Well, if all Christians were like you no one would have a problem with the religion. Nor would any of the atrocities have occured historically if all Christians had been like you.

The problem is that there are a lot of people who use the religion as a battering ram to beat people over the head with Jesus.

Even on these very forums there is a Christian fundamentalist telling me that, (in her own words) "You can not ever ever ever BE A RIGHTEOUS MAN/WOMAN AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD'S SON......."

So there you have it.

People do abuse the religion and Jesus to pass judgements on other people's relationship with their creator and their "righteousness".

So the bottom line is that the religion can indeed be used for such hateful purposes.

In fact, you and I have both quoted from the doctrine where it clearly states not to do this very thing:

Matt 10:14 "If no one welcomes you or listens to your words, as you leave that house or town, shake its dust off your feet."

Yet there are many Christians who perfer to spit in the face of Matthew and Jesus and instead use the religion as a battering ram to pass judgement on the 'righteousness' of other people.

It's not only sad, but it's also quite disgusting.

that was the nicest thing you've said to me

the reason i look at things the way I do is because i've been there done that and know how I felt then. but what i believe is right for me....doesn't mean it's how ev ryone else should think

although....if people thought like me and did as i say...the world would be a great place for me to live in

that's rose-ism 101

You should start you're one religion.

I was actually hoping to teach Christianity when I was younger. I too wanted to preach the LOVE that Jesus taught. Unfortunately I quickly discovered that that would not be tolerated by the Christian community. The fundamentalists are quick to step in and denounce anything that doesn't go along with thier hateful agenda.

In fact, Bishop Carlton Pearson is a good example of this. He was a Christian Bishop preaching in a well-established church. One night he believed to receive an epiphany from God that the concept of hell had been grossly misundestood and there was no such place.

He began to preach his divinely inspiried epiphany in his church and he was quickly labled as a heretic by the Christian community.

They simply won't tolerate even the remote sign of love of commpassion. It's hate all the way baby!

Dare to preach love in the name of God and you'll be castrated from the Christian community.

It's just not accepable.

ok abra....i get it (trust me) i have had my fill of those too

but what i said about my beliefs and what a christian is and the scripture i quoted....are those that don't follow them really what they say they are? i'm not talking about slipping once in a while. i slip too. i have an irish temper. but i'm talking about the ones that forget those scriptures on a daily basis