my understanding of it is,

what ever you create you must experience the effects

although this wording can mean several things, it is the wording i like best,
it implies a complete fairness to everything that has and will happen to us, as well as everyone else. and gives us responsibility for our life, and future lives if you believe in reincarnation

any thoughts? insights? agree? disagree?


i posted this in general religion too, but i figure i would get more responses here.

I think the Buddhist thread is the slowest thread in all of Mingle2. Perhaps everyone agrees here to the extent of the studies Buddhism teaches.

I realize karma can mean many things to people around the world

for me personally

I can just say

"Don't do that what you don't want done to you."


This leaves me with a clear conscience

that allows me

to live a peaceful life with others regardless in what they believe in

May the wisdom of Buddha create great fortunes and a clear conscience in your lifetime

I see it everyday working at the hospital! No matter how many times you think you can get away with something in your life eventually it will come back on you, sometimes with a tragic end. I have very little pity for most of my patients. "Those that live by the sword, die by the same", either it be by drugs, alcohol or simply very bad judgment & life choices.

Well I would say that your lack of pity will perhaps bring about it's own karmic outcomes in your life. The buddha teaches that the compassionate person works for the liberation from suffering for ALL living things. Perhaps you could think of it as an opportunity to reflect on how you would want to be treated if you were to find yourself suffering as a result of the karma that you have created. Just a thought. Have a nice day.

Compassion and pity are two distinctly different things.

.

The concept of the Golden Rule in Christian Tradition and Karma in the Eastern Traditions are no doubt excellent rules of thumb when it comes to "doing the right thing.". Difficulty arises when we don't know what the right thing may be, or when, no matter how sure we are that we know what the right thing is, we don't . Each of these traditions asks us to take a step further into a place where our actions are motivated by something other than our every day minds.

In Christianity, this motivational center that we are asked to act out of is sometimes referred to as Christ Consciousness or Grace or That Still, Small voice. In Buddhism, True Nature or the True Self, through which one acts without acting. In Taoism it's the Tao itself. I personally see them all as the same, but I'm not too picky.

To find this center, all of them ask us to, in one way or another, actully put aside our desire to do the right thing and our preconceptions of what the right thing is.

I'm not a Christian, but I have come to think that the overarching message of the New Covenant is that it's possible, through following Christ, to be free of the old rules and regulations about what the right action may be in a given situation, and through Grace, live in a way that right action flows as a matter of course, without regard to consequence.

I'm not exactly a Buddhist either, but the message in Buddhism is put more starkly - the end of desire is the end of suffering. That includes, for me, the desire to do the right thing.

So, to get back to the original idea "whatever you create you must experience the effect," I agree. I'm just not sure it's the best basis for deciding *what* to create.

Karma not only involves the actions you release into the world, but also those you harbor within. Actions are not just deeds done but also words and most importantly THOUGHTS. One is held just as responsible for their inner life as their outer life.

Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Unknown source

"I'm not exactly a Buddhist either, but the message in Buddhism is put more starkly - the end of desire is the end of suffering. That includes, for me, the desire to do the right thing."


Nope that ain't it at all. In fact there are clearly defined "right" or correct actions that must forever be adhered to.

In caring for them i am showing "compassion" for their pain & suffering.

Hi enderra. Yes, I'm familiar with the Precepts and what they entail. I view them in much the same way as I view The Ten Commandments, and do my best to follow them.

However, when one chooses to live by either or both, they are choosing to live within an imposed or external framework. My general point was that both Traditions promise that it is possible to eventually break out of this framework and into a place where The Precepts or The Commandments are kept without thought or effort.

I've found in my life that if i'm not careful (or mindful), my desire to adhere to rules as a means to an end can carry me away, and I wind up bogged down in process.

I hope this is a little clearer. At times, using words to discuss these things is like trying to peel a carrot with a hatchet, I find.

Hey Joad,
Interesting way of looking at it. I am going to take a few pokes at it, not to say you are wrong but to widen both of our views I hope.

Let's just start by agreeing that we are human and we live with other humans on this planet.

There are some things humans have in common despite their cultural, religious or racial backgrounds. An example is that us humans have a concept of mine and yours.

If I take what is yours without asking or without offering what is mine in return, trouble seems to follow.

My question to you is, would that scenario exist with or without Jesus or Buddha?

Thanks Enderra. I learn more from discussions than debates, no doubt the knuckle headed anti-authoritarian in me. Besides, seems like the truth in this stuff is seldom all one thing or the other. I'll poke too.

Based on the mine/yours premise, I'd say yes, that scenario would be present regardless, unless all humans became either truly delivered or enlightened or whatever you want to call it.

Seems I remember reading that in some cultures though, whether any still exist or not, there is no concept of mine/yours when it comes to material things. Hard to imagine. I guess they would still differentiate between, say, my thoughts/your thoughts, though.

Anyhow, I think one of the ideas in Buddhism is that, without desire for and attachment to material things, no one can really take anything from you. You don't "have" anything.

These are ideals, I know. How do you see it?

Well, unless you are a monk, you have some sort of possessions, that said. do you attach to them? So in a sense you do "have" but if it is lost or stolen, you release it.

However the point I was trying to make is that through observing human nature and the consequences of certain actions, philosophical or religious tenets as you call them may have been developed. But these cause and effects existed outside of these structures. So, then are they "RULES" or merely the nature of the beast, in this case human.

I don't consider them rules. I think the notion of rules comes in when you have a divine presence that says if you do these thing you will get in trouble, I won't love you, you are bad bad bad etc...

I left the christian church because of this. I believe that I am responsible for my own actions and if I do things that I feel are outside of my intuitive or viseral sense of what is good/right/fair/just/cool however you choose to name it, I will suffer.

That said, we know there are people that have no morality, or rather don't adhere to our same sense of right and wrong, or at least they appear not to on the surface. I have a feeling that, that is a mask for them, that on an unconscious level they still are holding themselves responsible, they may punish themselves by continuing to be involved in behavior that causes them physical, emotional and spiritual harm. Addiction, low self-esteem, legal problems, cronic pain etc...

As far as my studies have lead me there is no end to this, in fact as soon as you say to yourself I have mastered this or that attachment or desire, it will appear in some other way or worst yet a new version of something you already feel you dealt with before.

I also think that one can become as you said attached to the idea of getting it all at once. These are the people that have the hollier than thou attitude. They try to shelter themselves from anyone that doesn't adhere to their tenets, they think that they can protect themselves and or not be a part of all the evil around them. They are dealing with heavy fear karma, they actually don't trust themselves. In fact they attach to some false moral rightousness. Denying oneself a desire is not the same as facing it and actively being conscious of what it will cost.

In fact, what you are speaking of here is much closer to my personal idea of what karma is. My sense is that when one acts improperly, the effect is immediate. One has harmed themselves in addition to whatever harm is released into the world. The accumulative effect of these improper acts can manifest itself in a miserable existence in this life, without even being concerned over a next one.

I also agree that the tendency of people to agree with and adopt the identity of a group in order to feel more secure in a world with so many differing opinions can lead to problems too. I think the us/them split has led to far more suffering than the yours/mine split over property.

None of this answers the question "Where do moral truths or ethics come from?" my idea is that we carry them within us and that the proper role of the various traditions is to help lead us to a point where we are able to discover the absolute truth of them in ourselves. I think that it's difficult for any organization to keep an intention like that "pure" without corruption creeping in if for no other reason than plain old human nature.

Hmm. Feel like I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop here. Thanks for listening.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. Buddha

I applied this to teachers and politicians. Now I have been applying it to my dates, man does it ever thin the herd. LMAO

“This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.” Dali Lama

Ha! Pity you no longer care for the Church. You could just get it over with and move into a nunnery!

Think I am going to buy some toys instead.

And the job you do is an admirable one. i have the utmost respect for people who heal others. However in judging people negatively or as you put it, having very little pity, we miss an opportunity to help others. I can be as judgemental as the next person and that is a trait i am trying very hard to change about myself. My teacher said something to me once that has really changed my life. This is a loose paraphrasing... "when presented with two roads always take the road that seems to be the hard one. When faced with people or actions that cause us discomfort realize that you are receiving a blessing. Hardship is a gift that allows us to grow and gives us a chance to exercise patience and selflessness."