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| Topic: Atheism Weak or Strong | |
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No anyone who can not think for themselves make up fairy tales Krisma. Which is what you all continually do.
Miles if ANYTHING I have stated on this thread is incorrect, a falsification of historical data, or exaggerated then I beg you to find my error. It is my understanding that at least six of these higher profile Founding Fathers were Deists. Any credible historian would agree with this fact. I never said that there was no Christians involved with the Continental Congress, only that the Deist influence was enormous on the writing and articulation of these documents. One only need glance at the Constitution. Even if so.. It was a group effort who agreed on what was being done and I am sure the language used. Just because something in govt' is signed by one lets say the pres. does not mean only he agreed. I do not know if it was a 51% vote or not then. I think congress on a lot of bills it has to be a 66% in favor to pass..Shalom..Miles I never said that there was no Christians involved with the Continental Congress, only that the Deist influence was enormous on the writing and articulation of these documents. One only need glance at the Constitution. That is a broad statement.. Could you give some examples of this. The first part of your post, I have no idea to whom or what you are referring so I can not speak to that. I already showed you one instance in which Congress actually revised a statement made by Jefferson, a strong and well known Deist. I have already given several examples on thread yet here is another. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once. But that makes no claim that the men who drafted the documents were Deists. Jefferson was not a deist when he signed those documents. He did not become one until much later in his life. Your post does nothing to support your claim. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 01/22/09 05:31 AM
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Eljay said:
But that makes no claim that the men who drafted the documents were Deists. Jefferson was not a deist when he signed those documents. He did not become one until much later in his life. Your post does nothing to support your claim.
What are you joking? Of course it does. If a bunch of rabid Christians had written this (or the ones that were involved) then the bible, Jesus and I’m sure several heavy handed religious statements would have been found throughout this document and the Declaration of Independence that Jefferson himself authored. He also wrote the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" We see nothing of a kind in this secular document. We do however see a demand being made for a "wall of separation between church and state." He was also a champion for Human Rights and a Deist. Only someone who knows NOTHING about the history of this nation would make such a claim about Thomas Jefferson. He was a well known Deist at the time that he was involved with the Continental Congress and also through his term as the Third President of the United States. Words written by Thomas Jefferson: "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin. 1. That there are three Gods. 2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing. 3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith. 4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use. 5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822 |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 01/22/09 05:02 AM
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I have repeatedly named the top six that were Deists. These men were arguably the most influential on the writing of these documents. Here they are again. I have yet to hear you refute any of this evidence even with all of your "quick perusals of wiki." Sorry Charlie.
Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Franklin James Madison John Adams Thomas Paine George Washington |
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 Do Pagans believe in slavery?
Do modern day pagans?  Sex slaves yes.
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Eljay said: But that makes no claim that the men who drafted the documents were Deists. Jefferson was not a deist when he signed those documents. He did not become one until much later in his life. Your post does nothing to support your claim.
What are you joking? Of course it does. If a bunch of rabid Christians had written this (or the ones that were involved) then the bible, Jesus and I’m sure several heavy handed religious statements would have been found throughout this document and the Declaration of Independence that Jefferson himself authored. He also wrote the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" We see nothing of a kind in this secular document. We do however see a demand being made for a "wall of separation between church and state." He was also a champion for Human Rights and a Deist. Only someone who knows NOTHING about the history of this nation would make such a claim about Thomas Jefferson. He was a well known Deist at the time that he was involved with the Continental Congress and also through his term as the Third President of the United States. Words written by Thomas Jefferson: "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin. 1. That there are three Gods. 2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing. 3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith. 4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use. 5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822 For what I've seen you post about the revolutionary period of time and the founding of this nation - I've forgotten more than you know. There were 55 framers of the constitution. Name all the Deists. I expect you to come up with at least 27. One over the median would suffice for me to accept your claim that the country was found by Deists. And by the way, Jefferson wrote that letter 4 years before He dies. Come up with a quote at the time of the writing of the Declaration and the Forming of the constitution that contradicts what I said about his becoming a Deist later in life. Again I say - you have nothing to back up your statement that "Deists founded this country." |
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I have repeatedly named the top six that were Deists. These men were arguably the most influential on the writing of these documents. Here they are again. I have yet to hear you refute any of this evidence even with all of your "quick perusals of wiki." Sorry Charlie. Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Franklin James Madison John Adams Thomas Paine George Washington You are wrong on Adams and Washington. But aside from that, you've named 6 of the 55 framers of the Constitution. That's less than one ninth of the Total of just the Framers of the constitution. And by that you think you've proved the country was founded by Deists. Krimsa - you need to find a good lawyer - and sue the college you went to for fraud, because it's obvious they didn't teach you anything. |
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I have repeatedly named the top six that were Deists. These men were arguably the most influential on the writing of these documents. Here they are again. I have yet to hear you refute any of this evidence even with all of your "quick perusals of wiki." Sorry Charlie. Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Franklin James Madison John Adams Thomas Paine George Washington You are wrong on Adams and Washington. But aside from that, you've named 6 of the 55 framers of the Constitution. That's less than one ninth of the Total of just the Framers of the constitution. And by that you think you've proved the country was founded by Deists. Krimsa - you need to find a good lawyer - and sue the college you went to for fraud, because it's obvious they didn't teach you anything.  OUCH
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 01/23/09 05:14 AM
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Eljay said: But that makes no claim that the men who drafted the documents were Deists. Jefferson was not a deist when he signed those documents. He did not become one until much later in his life. Your post does nothing to support your claim.
What are you joking? Of course it does. If a bunch of rabid Christians had written this (or the ones that were involved) then the bible, Jesus and I’m sure several heavy handed religious statements would have been found throughout this document and the Declaration of Independence that Jefferson himself authored. He also wrote the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" We see nothing of a kind in this secular document. We do however see a demand being made for a "wall of separation between church and state." He was also a champion for Human Rights and a Deist. Only someone who knows NOTHING about the history of this nation would make such a claim about Thomas Jefferson. He was a well known Deist at the time that he was involved with the Continental Congress and also through his term as the Third President of the United States. Words written by Thomas Jefferson: "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin. 1. That there are three Gods. 2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing. 3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith. 4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use. 5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822 For what I've seen you post about the revolutionary period of time and the founding of this nation - I've forgotten more than you know. There were 55 framers of the constitution. Name all the Deists. I expect you to come up with at least 27. One over the median would suffice for me to accept your claim that the country was found by Deists. And by the way, Jefferson wrote that letter 4 years before He dies. Come up with a quote at the time of the writing of the Declaration and the Forming of the constitution that contradicts what I said about his becoming a Deist later in life. Again I say - you have nothing to back up your statement that "Deists founded this country." I am discussing the actual Continental Congress and the founding of the nation which would have been between 1774 to 1789 in three incarnations. That is what I have been discussing. What page are you on exactly as it relates to this discussion? I have told you that 6 of the higher profile Founding Fathers were Deist. You have not offered any evidence to dispute that claim unless you consider whining that it isn’t so, evidence. I certainly do not. Eljay, without exception, the faith of our Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God." Those are BOTH facets of the Deist faith. In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said, Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism. Now THAT's some serious whining out of the clergy itself. 
The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity: I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. Thomas Jefferson So it would appear the ball is once again in your court Eljay. Also, it is rude to attack one's academic background. You have repeatedly come to me when you have had questions concerning Neanderthal man and Paleontology in general. I hold a Bachelor of the Sciences degree. I will admit, history is merely a hobby for me. I just enjoy reading biographies of famous people from the past and historical accounts of various events. However, as demonstrated on these forums. I know of what I speak. I have never once publicly insulted your intelligence. I would thank you to offer me the same courtesy. Thank you, Eljay. |
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Actually - the research done by the University of Houston on the writtings of the original fathers and the founding documents of the country have shown that the most referenced work of the time was the bible. That is not to take away from the numerous other documents referenced - the Mayflower Compact, Magna Carter etc. So it's hard to get around the idea that Christain Principles did not come into play for the founding fathers. Many of them were clergy anyway - so it only stands to reason that the bible and Christian principles would be sighted. I have no knowledge of the U of H study, but I have no reason to doubt its rigor or authenticity. Being as many of the colonists were fleeing religious persecution, it makes sense that they'd reference religious documents. My quibble starts with the nebulous nature of 'Christian Principles' in this context. What 'principles' exactly? Those of sin and salvation? Morals? The Golden Rule? Where in the Bible was a presumption of innocence ever mentioned? Habeas Corpus? Prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishments? And when you think about it, isn't the Anti-Establishment clause in the First Amendment a direct contravention of the the First Commandment? I wouldn't disagree about the difficulties of a charismatic Atheist or even an Agnostic being elected to the Presidency. I don't think there's ever been a time in the history of the country that it would have been possible. It took all the way until Kennedy before a Catholic would even be considered. But these days... who knows. With the election of Obama - I would say that the norms of political elections have fallen by the wayside, and who knows, maybe we'll see an Atheistic president before either of us buys the farm. I feel compelled to mention, on the other hand, that I also doubt that a pastor or priest would stand a chance of making it either. I guess Mike Huckabee was about the closest, because I doubt Pat Robertson was ever really even close. So, maybe it's a 'goose and gander' proposition, and I also have to say I'd not want to see an atheist or agnostic elected because either form of thinking suddenly became fashionable. I think it takes so much more to make someone into a statesman. -Kerry O. |
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I think it takes so much more to make someone into a statesman. |
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Eljay said: But that makes no claim that the men who drafted the documents were Deists. Jefferson was not a deist when he signed those documents. He did not become one until much later in his life. Your post does nothing to support your claim.
What are you joking? Of course it does. If a bunch of rabid Christians had written this (or the ones that were involved) then the bible, Jesus and I’m sure several heavy handed religious statements would have been found throughout this document and the Declaration of Independence that Jefferson himself authored. He also wrote the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" We see nothing of a kind in this secular document. We do however see a demand being made for a "wall of separation between church and state." He was also a champion for Human Rights and a Deist. Only someone who knows NOTHING about the history of this nation would make such a claim about Thomas Jefferson. He was a well known Deist at the time that he was involved with the Continental Congress and also through his term as the Third President of the United States. Words written by Thomas Jefferson: "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin. 1. That there are three Gods. 2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing. 3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith. 4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use. 5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822 For what I've seen you post about the revolutionary period of time and the founding of this nation - I've forgotten more than you know. There were 55 framers of the constitution. Name all the Deists. I expect you to come up with at least 27. One over the median would suffice for me to accept your claim that the country was found by Deists. And by the way, Jefferson wrote that letter 4 years before He dies. Come up with a quote at the time of the writing of the Declaration and the Forming of the constitution that contradicts what I said about his becoming a Deist later in life. Again I say - you have nothing to back up your statement that "Deists founded this country." I am discussing the actual Continental Congress and the founding of the nation which would have been between 1774 to 1789 in three incarnations. That is what I have been discussing. What page are you on exactly as it relates to this discussion? I have told you that 6 of the higher profile Founding Fathers were Deist. You have not offered any evidence to dispute that claim unless you consider whining that it isn’t so, evidence. I certainly do not. Eljay, without exception, the faith of our Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God." Those are BOTH facets of the Deist faith. In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said, Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism. Now THAT's some serious whining out of the clergy itself.
The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity: I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. Thomas Jefferson So it would appear the ball is once again in your court Eljay. Also, it is rude to attack one's academic background. You have repeatedly come to me when you have had questions concerning Neanderthal man and Paleontology in general. I hold a Bachelor of the Sciences degree. I will admit, history is merely a hobby for me. I just enjoy reading biographies of famous people from the past and historical accounts of various events. However, as demonstrated on these forums. I know of what I speak. I have never once publicly insulted your intelligence. I would thank you to offer me the same courtesy. Thank you, Eljay. So what has Bird Wilson's comment on Presidents in the mid 1800's have to do with the Founding Fathers? The topic at hand is your statement: "The Founding Father's were Deists". I'm waiting for you to name the 27 framers of the Constitution who were Deists. That would be a slight majority. And the Six people you have named were Hardly the top six of our Founding Fathers. They may be the most popular - but they were hardly the most influential. What of Roger Sherman, John Jay, John Wilson... Got any idea who these men were? And you speak of Jefferson and the Constitution. You are aware that Jefferson is NOT amoung the 55 framers of the Constitution, aren't you. He wasn't even in the country when the document was drafted. So now that the ball is in your court. Demonstrate how your comment is not fallacious. |
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I believe the framers added the name of a god to the text for reverence of the text, not to include exclusively any certain religion or non religion for that matter. Considering that many who came here were escaping religious dominance in their countries, I really doubt they would have wanted one top religion in this country or any religion running this country at any level.
Religious take the references out of context considering the factual history of the men. |
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This whole argument is fallacious. The whole idea that this country is a Christian nation becuase of the ideas of the people who moved in hundreds of years ago is quite tripe yet folks continue to jog it out like its fact, well if it was fact then Christianity would be the national religion wouldn't it?
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Actually - the research done by the University of Houston on the writtings of the original fathers and the founding documents of the country have shown that the most referenced work of the time was the bible. That is not to take away from the numerous other documents referenced - the Mayflower Compact, Magna Carter etc. So it's hard to get around the idea that Christain Principles did not come into play for the founding fathers. Many of them were clergy anyway - so it only stands to reason that the bible and Christian principles would be sighted. I have no knowledge of the U of H study, but I have no reason to doubt its rigor or authenticity. Being as many of the colonists were fleeing religious persecution, it makes sense that they'd reference religious documents. My quibble starts with the nebulous nature of 'Christian Principles' in this context. What 'principles' exactly? Those of sin and salvation? Morals? The Golden Rule? Where in the Bible was a presumption of innocence ever mentioned? Habeas Corpus? Prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishments? And when you think about it, isn't the Anti-Establishment clause in the First Amendment a direct contravention of the the First Commandment? I wouldn't disagree about the difficulties of a charismatic Atheist or even an Agnostic being elected to the Presidency. I don't think there's ever been a time in the history of the country that it would have been possible. It took all the way until Kennedy before a Catholic would even be considered. But these days... who knows. With the election of Obama - I would say that the norms of political elections have fallen by the wayside, and who knows, maybe we'll see an Atheistic president before either of us buys the farm. I feel compelled to mention, on the other hand, that I also doubt that a pastor or priest would stand a chance of making it either. I guess Mike Huckabee was about the closest, because I doubt Pat Robertson was ever really even close. So, maybe it's a 'goose and gander' proposition, and I also have to say I'd not want to see an atheist or agnostic elected because either form of thinking suddenly became fashionable. I think it takes so much more to make someone into a statesman. -Kerry O. The U of H study was one that was conducted over a ten year period of time and examined all of the writings and correspondence of the 150 some odd "Founding Fathers" - essentially those who's work was on one or all of The Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Articles of Confederation - as well as those who served in the original congress and Supreme Court (Most of whom were part of the previous aformentioned commitees.) Statistics were then compiled over who or what was most quoted or referenced in Terms of the creating of the Documents and idea's that formed this country. The idea of forming a Republic was actually not a new idea - it had already been outlined by John Locke - who was one of the more frequently referenced influences of the Founding Father's. As would be expected - the bible was quoted more often than any other individual or Document, since about 90 per cent of the Founding Fathers were members of Orthadox Christian churches, and many were themselves in the Clergy. Hardly a surprise since the original purpose of coming to this country was for the purpose of freely pursuing their Christain beliefs without being influenced by the Church of England - which despite this effort, was still the largest church in the New Colony. Nor surpsing - again, since it was a British Colony. The Church of England was much too powereful back in those days to not have established itself in the New World. Anyway... I find it surprising that at the time of the Founding Fathers, Christianity would not have been extremely influential in the founding of this country. I have spent my entire life in New England - and churches outnumber any other type of establishment - by far. The major colleges established in those days were Divinity Schools! The school primers were taken directly from the bible. Try as one might - wish as one may, attempting to erase the Christian influence on the founding of this country is a sad lesson in ignorance and ignoring the facts. It just didn't happen any other way. Even in my youth when I was an Atheist - I knew what the History of Boston - the Revolution and the Founding Fathers was and the relation of God in those actions. As to your mention of the nature of the Presidency - I agree, Huckabee (aside from G. Bush that is) is probably the closest we've come, or will come to an Evangelical President. I tend to agree with you. It matters not what the lected officials of our country believe personally - as long as they do their jobs, are not corrupt, and do not cater to special interest groups or lobbiests. There's wishful thinking for you. |
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I believe the framers added the name of a god to the text for reverence of the text, not to include exclusively any certain religion or non religion for that matter. Considering that many who came here were escaping religious dominance in their countries, I really doubt they would have wanted one top religion in this country or any religion running this country at any level. Religious take the references out of context considering the factual history of the men. True. They went out of their way not to give the impression that Religios preference was any part of the founding of the Republic. Under no circumstances did they want this country to be influenced by a national church like England was. That is why the first amendment established that the federal Government would make NO laws that would control the people in respect to any religion. The idea was to leave it to each State to establish their own laws in respect to Religion and that there would be no "National" religion. |
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This whole argument is fallacious. The whole idea that this country is a Christian nation becuase of the ideas of the people who moved in hundreds of years ago is quite tripe yet folks continue to jog it out like its fact, well if it was fact then Christianity would be the national religion wouldn't it? This country is NOT a christian nation. Just look at the laws that have been established - or eliminated in the last 50 years. Hardly done with anything biblical in mind. It's been anything but... Legalizing abortion - no school prayer - legalizing Sodomy - Gay Marriage - Euthanasia - to name but a few. Herdly christain principles. But hasn't this discussion been about the influences on the Founding Fathers and what they believed? At least it's seemed that way for the last 5 or 6 pages. |
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Edited by
Dragoness
on
Fri 01/23/09 11:07 PM
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I believe the framers added the name of a god to the text for reverence of the text, not to include exclusively any certain religion or non religion for that matter. Considering that many who came here were escaping religious dominance in their countries, I really doubt they would have wanted one top religion in this country or any religion running this country at any level. Religious take the references out of context considering the factual history of the men. True. They went out of their way not to give the impression that Religios preference was any part of the founding of the Republic. Under no circumstances did they want this country to be influenced by a national church like England was. That is why the first amendment established that the federal Government would make NO laws that would control the people in respect to any religion. The idea was to leave it to each State to establish their own laws in respect to Religion and that there would be no "National" religion. In order to truly execute what they intended there cannot be any religion in any position of control in this country. Religion is not the moral control in this country, even if they believe so. The only way for a government to respect ALL it cannot have ANY. That is the only way the government can be impartial. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Fri 01/23/09 11:17 PM
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This whole argument is fallacious. The whole idea that this country is a Christian nation becuase of the ideas of the people who moved in hundreds of years ago is quite tripe yet folks continue to jog it out like its fact, well if it was fact then Christianity would be the national religion wouldn't it? This country is NOT a christian nation. Just look at the laws that have been established - or eliminated in the last 50 years. Hardly done with anything biblical in mind. It's been anything but... Legalizing abortion - no school prayer - legalizing Sodomy - Gay Marriage - Euthanasia - to name but a few. Herdly christain principles. But hasn't this discussion been about the influences on the Founding Fathers and what they believed? At least it's seemed that way for the last 5 or 6 pages. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 01/23/09 11:50 PM
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Eljay.....just because this nation has Problems,
like for instance, those trying to take God out of everything now..... does NOT make this nation any less the nation that was founded on christian principles!!! We are STILL a christian nation.... that allows freedom of religion for all. Cause The SPIRIT of this nation .... still lives on... in the heart of MOST of the People here!! Despite our problems!!! NOTHING can take that away from the heart of the people here !!! Let's PRAY for our nation..... despite all that is happening here....... cause we are still a GREAT Nation!! 
Look at how all the people got together when the towers came down... look how all the people pulled together when katrina hit... or when we faced other other major castastrophes... not only here..but worldwide!! Thru it all..look how we all helped one another.... and pulled together!!!! There is HOPE for America.... and America WILL survive.... and the Christian Principles we were founded on... WILL NOT die....... cause there is no greater nation to live in... than a christian nation like the USA... and people know this!!! Look at some of the other nations.... would any want to live under religious rule...instead....like is found in some of the other nations? Of course not. Let us WAKE up and Pray... PRAY for our nation... instead of speaking DEFEAT over our Nation!!  
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sat 01/24/09 12:00 AM
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Let's take for example, the christian nondenominational church, I mentioned the other day... what if, for instance, a riot broke out in that christian church... where suddenly the christian principles were under attack.... would that make this christian church .....ANY LESS CHRISTIAN??? OF COURSE NOT. The same goes for this nation!!!! "If my people, which are called by my Name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." -2nd Chronicles 7:14
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