I think people misunderstand the meaning of the omniscient, omnipotent, etc.

The terms are in comparison to other states of consciousness. The state of consciousness that "knows all" is one that is called "being one with God" or "Nirvana" or "God consciousness. It is simply a feeling and knowing all in the sense that all is connected and all is one. This knowing is a knowing of what is going on NOW. It does not know the future because the future does not exist.

All that happens, and has happened and will happen, does so in the present moment.

Atheists claim that omniscient and omnipotent are incompatible because if God is omniscient he must be knowing what he is going to do at some point of time (say one year later) in the future. Then he is powerless against changing it. Hence He cannot be omnipotent.

BUT God does not know the future or what "he" (or "It") will do because consciousness is a free agent and so is the will. People call it "free will."

God is being. God IS.

Do you KNOW what you will do in one year? Does that mean that you know the future? It is the same with God...

There is no Time....

There are only events and outcomes.

So God just is, and knows what is happening (and why) in the present moment. God lives within its creation. God does things through its creation.

Omnipresent means that God is everywhere and in everything. This is also the pantheist view. I don't hear many people talking about Omnipresent for some reason. Perhaps because it does point to a pantheist view of God.

Omnipotent simply means that of all things known to exist, nothing is more powerful than this living force. It does not mean to answer all the silly paradox puzzles people come up with about what God can or cannot do.

All is a vast consciousness. I saw it the other day and I saw myself as a tiny spark of individual consciousness twinkling in the vastness of a massive field. We are but a twinkle of consciousness in the body of "God."

jb

“There is no Time....There are only events and outcomes.”

“All that happens, and has happened and will happen, does so in the present moment.”

“The movement of time, according to the Bible, is from eternity, since it is created by God and moves out of and in terms of His eternal decree. . . . Because time is predestined, and because its beginning and end are already established, time does not de- velop in evolutionary fashion from past to present to future. In- stead, it unfolds from future to present to past. A simple illustration might help us understand this. Let us say someone finds you packing a sack lunch on a warm Saturday morning, and asks the reason for it. You answer, “Because I’m going to have a picnic at the park today.” What has happened? In a sense, the future– the planned picnic – has determined the past. Because you wanted a picnic at the park, you then planned a lunch. Logically, the picnic preceded, and caused, the making of the lunch, even though it followed it chronologically.

First off:
You cannot have “an event” without “time”. By definition, an event requires a “beginning” and an “end”. But without time, there is no way to associate any meaning to those two terms, so the term “event” is a meaningless concept without time. Likewise, an “outcome” is the “final state” following a sequence of events. So again, “outcome” is a meaningless concept without the time. You cannot divorce “event” or “outcome” from the concept of time without divorcing all meaning from them as well.

Now I just jumped on that one because it was such an obvious semantic cluster****. But the real issue is here...The way you put it makes it sound like it’s all “squashed together in a single lump” with no difference between them. But the past, present and future are most definitely three distinctly different and separate things. They are not all the same. Now I think I understand your intended meaning so let me put it a different way and then see if you agree with me.

The best way to describe the difference is to associate each with its most easily recognizable component:

Past – Memory
Present – Physical reality
Future – Imagination

So in that way “memory” (past), “imagination” (future) and “physical reality” (present) all exist now.

‘Zat work?

You cannot have “an event” without “time”. By definition, an event requires a “beginning” and an “end”. But without time, there is no way to associate any meaning to those two terms, so the term “event” is a meaningless concept without time. Likewise, an “outcome” is the “final state” following a sequence of events. So again, “outcome” is a meaningless concept without the time. You cannot divorce “event” or “outcome” from the concept of time without divorcing all meaning from them as well.

Interesting, but I don't think things proceed in one direction as from the future to the past or from the past to the future.

From the eternal position, it events are inter connected and wind forwards and backwards (in their process) according to where a conscious thinking center places their attention and proceeds. But I think there are more directions than simply forward and backward in time. It is more like a multi-dimensional grid where at any crossing point one can enter a different time line path to a different outcome altogether. But that outcome must proceed in accordance to the path taken.

For example, hypothetically, my higher self wanted to change the direction of my future which it knew was going down a disastrous path and it had reached a point of no return on that path. So I went backwards in time (or jumped back) to a point before that point of no return where choices were still available that would change the course of my life.

Although my memory was not available, a strong instinct caused me to change my course although I was not sure why.

This way of living a life can allow a person to go back and do things differently and it can allow a person to relive their life more than once or twice and experience different outcomes that result from certain choices made or not made. But it has to be done on instinct and by listening to your higher self and not to your little ego self because you do not have access to the memory of these transformations.

The basic plot of your life is there, but there are many different ways to get there, just as there are many ways to get to New York from Colorado.

jb

Good analogy to my analogy goddess, But as you state you have to jump back to an earlier time to do what you do/did, when looking at things from the very end and moving backwards in time, you would know [as god supposedly does] that JB was going to do what you state in your analogy and be able to correct it or work around it to your satisfaction/pleasure. I think that is the only way you could really be god like is if you can see the finality first and go back to make all things fall into place - that way there are no surprises. Their would be no need to say "whoa" and back up to change directions/paths/etc.. of course I'm talking about if this is how one is to explain the book god.

But i also see this to be true of the intuition you speak of - if god was in charge like i state, then he may very well be the one who gives this intuition that you speak of knowing that you would act upon it as such and in that sense have you avoid what was to happen. If he can truly see backwards as to every event and knows you intimately, then fror sure he could work upon your intuition to create the results he desired - don't you think?

Interesting, but I don't think things proceed in one direction as from the future to the past or from the past to the future.

From the eternal position, it events are inter connected and wind forwards and backwards (in their process) according to where a conscious thinking center places their attention and proceeds. But I think there are more directions than simply forward and backward in time. It is more like a multi-dimensional grid where at any crossing point one can enter a different time line path to a different outcome altogether. But that outcome must proceed in accordance to the path taken.

For example, hypothetically, my higher self wanted to change the direction of my future which it knew was going down a disastrous path and it had reached a point of no return on that path. So I went backwards in time (or jumped back) to a point before that point of no return where choices were still available that would change the course of my life.

Although my memory was not available, a strong instinct caused me to change my course although I was not sure why.

This way of living a life can allow a person to go back and do things differently and it can allow a person to relive their life more than once or twice and experience different outcomes that result from certain choices made or not made. But it has to be done on instinct and by listening to your higher self and not to your little ego self because you do not have access to the memory of these transformations.

The basic plot of your life is there, but there are many different ways to get there, just as there are many ways to get to New York from Colorado.

jb

Ok, we need to backtrack a little here and go over something that I thought we had agreement on but apparently we don’t.

You speak of memory as being “personal past”.
So then there must be some past that is “not personal”.
I agree with that, and I propose that there is a “group past”.
This “group past” is composed of agreements that we have made about the coincidence of events in each individual’s “personal past”.
Example: “Man landed on the moon in 1969”.
That “event” exists in the “personal past” of many people still alive today.
It does not exist in the “personal past” of anyone born after 1969.
But it does exist as an agreed upon event in the "group past".
Now referring back to our “time as a coordinate system” postulate from another thread, “the moon landing” represents a “coordinate” in the “group past”.

So to me, that is what “time” is. It is not the events themselves, which only exist in the personal pasts of individuals. It is the collective agreement we have made as to how all those “personal pasts” are synchronized with each other.




So I’m having trouble fitting that concept of time into your “matrix” scenario – particularly the concept of “paths”.

why are you hiding behind your eye ball, why not put a full face pic up so we can see you?

Well I guess I cant actively participate in such a topic as I dont hold faith in the "book god" Certainly no secret there. However speaking from a purely observational view point, and what I have been reading in the bible, it appears to me that not only would god feel he had the right to destroy this planet and all of its inhabitants, he would probably relish the entire process. He might not do it all at once either but slowly, causing a lot of fear, panic, and competition for resources amongst the human populace. He already did it once with that stupid flood nonsense, why not try it again?

“The movement of time, according to the Bible, is from eternity, since it is created by God and moves out of and in terms of His eternal decree. . . . Because time is predestined, and because its beginning and end are already established, time does not de- velop in evolutionary fashion from past to present to future. In- stead, it unfolds from future to present to past. A simple illustration might help us understand this. Let us say someone finds you packing a sack lunch on a warm Saturday morning, and asks the reason for it. You answer, “Because I’m going to have a picnic at the park today.” What has happened? In a sense, the future– the planned picnic – has determined the past. Because you wanted a picnic at the park, you then planned a lunch. Logically, the picnic preceded, and caused, the making of the lunch, even though it followed it chronologically.

thnx K, your humerous input is always welcome.

What puzzles me - is that you have a complete grasp of all this. Very well put. It really gets to the heart of your OP. God doesn't "do what he wants" with his creation, he already knows. Despite the fact that the choice remains with us, God is not sitting around waiting for those choices to be made - he does not function within time. He knows the appointed hour for everything, and everyone. He's see's it all unfold from the end back to the creation, and before a star was placed in the sky, he knew what was the best for all involved - despite our perceptions through whatever moral filters our world view determines for us.

Perhaps a better question might be - are those things which happen to us represent the best that God can allow based on our choices? Isn't there an absolute truth which exists beyond that which we percieve that determines the "amount" of consequences we must endure. After all - no matter what God has in "plan" for us - the choices have already been made. His only part in it all is how long he allows us the means to make those choices before he takes our breath and heartbeat away.

What a hopeless fatalistic depressing idea. It leaves no room for free will or choice.

This is not truth.

The choices have already been made? Are you speaking of the choices we make in the future? If so, how do you give room for any free will if that be the case?

God has no "plan" for us. All conscious beings make their own choices and create their own consequences according to the law of attraction. All choices are made in the present moment. They have not "already been made" in the future because the future only exists as a probability. It is not set in stone.

A person who believes this believe they have no power what so ever over their own lives or choices or future.

jb