This is an argument about where to begin the discussion of whether or not God exists.

It says that we should assume that God does not exist, and make it the duty of people who believe in God to to prove that God does exist.

We should adopt the same policy that we do with people who insist the Loch Ness Monster exists:

Start by assuming that the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist. Form an idea of what would constitute the Loch Ness Monster. Then see if there's anything that "proves" that particular thing exists.

The philosopher Anthony Flew who wrote an article on this said:

Personally I feel that to start with atheism is the wrong place to start.

After all, atheism asserts that there is no 'god'. But isn't that an assertion that should also require proof?

Wouldn't a better place to start be with agnosticism. No proof is required because nothing is being claimed other than 'we just don't know'. And there is no proof required to admit that we don't know.

I also have a problem with bringing the word "god" into it unless this is what a person wishes to try to prove.

You posted:



Here we need to define the word 'god' and that definition certainly should be given by the person who is attempting to claim that such a deity or entity exists.

I for one, am not so sure that 'god' is the proper word to use. If only because it has been contaminated by religions that insist that it refers to a fully conscious and external 'deity'.

For me personally the real question is not so much of whether or not a 'god' exist, but rather whether or not our true essences is 'spiritual' in nature rather than being purely physical as it appears to be to our physical senses.

In other words, to me, the term 'atheism' is more than just a disbelief in a godhead-like deity, but it is also a disbelief in any kind of non-physical or spiritual world that may genuinely underlie our true essence.

If I were going to propose anything at all, it would be along the lines of a spiritual essence of our nature. My description of our spiritual essence would be one of a nonphysical consciousness that is eternal in its scope. In other words, I suggest that our true essence is eternal in both direction (i.e. we were spirit before we came into this world, and we'll continue to be spirit after we leave this physical world).

That would be the hypothetical description that I would entertain serious discussion on.

I do not feel that I can prove this even to myself much less to anyone else. However, I can give arguments of why it might be worthy of consideration as a real possibility. And I can support such arguments using physics from both General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory. The latter being a mathematical description that is far more than just a 'theory' as it is a very well-observed mathematical description of the actual universe in which we live.

As I say, I do not claim to be able to prove this. I merely offer it as something that I believe is worthy of consideration and sincere research. I would be more than happy to accept 'agnosticism' as the social norm until such determinations to the contrary can be made.

Otherwise I would denounce atheism as being just as unproven as theism.

Just my thoughts, and thank you Belushi for posting a very refreshing thread!

You must have heard my cry for a change of channel.

I would say that it would be as hard to prove that God does exist as it would be to prove that God doesn't exist. The truth is out there. X Files. God may be the ultimate X File. Hmmm

You have a good set of points there James.

I can see what you are saying, start from the middle and work outwards.

But then when a child is born, they are born atheists. They dont have the need for god. Just their parents.

If they are not introduced to any form of religion, then they will be athiestic until they look at the world around them.

I made the decision that there was no god when I was ejected from bible-bashing christian Sunday school, for asking too many impertinent questions.

From that moment I was actually agnostic, as I wasnt sure. I researched and read the bible (bit of a book worm, back then) and still found nothing of any interest apart from a bunch of lovely stories.

So, its personal choice, but we do start from zero with no knowledge of any god.

Our outside influences make us who we are.

I started with what I was sure of.

I exist.

Then My attention shifted outward to reality.

The world exists.

Then I asked the question.

How?

I'm still working on that.

So far, I have yet to get any personal attention from Sky-daddy that I would consider quality time with any sort of father figure.

When God decides to show up and say "hello" like a decent sort, I will reconsider my position of his/her/its relevance in my life.

I mentioned this to Redykeulous on another thread. This has not been my personal experience.

As a young child I had very profound innate feeling of spirituality. Long before an concept of god was taught to me. That feeling did include a 'god concept' in my own mind.

It was indeed a feeling of an almost 'fatherly imagine' godhead watching over me, although I shouldn't say "fatherly imagine" because that implies male gender. I most certainly did not think of god in terms of gender. Nor did I even think of god in terms of being 'human-like'. At least no in physical form.

I also did not think of myself as being detached from god. On the contrary it was much more of a 'symbiosis' type of a concept. Almost like as if I was a
'finger of god' so-to-speak. Definitely connected with no worry about ever being disconnected.

Now I will grant you that this could have been entirely the fabrication of my very own childhood imagination. There was no physical evidence for this. I didn't actually see god visually. I didn't hear god speak acoustically. Nor even did I hear god speak to me verbally in my mind using speech. god did communicate with me. But it was completely telepathic in terms of pure knowledge. In other words, I knew what god was thinking, and god knew what I was thinking. It was just a mutual sharing of minds.

So fine. Perhaps this was nothing more than my own wild imagination. But for me it was quite vivid. And this was long before any adult taught me anything about any god or how I should think of god.

So your assertion that all humans are born innately with the mindset of an atheist just doesn't wash with me. Some people do at least innately imagine that there is a higher being. I'm living proof to myself that this is indeed the case.

Clearly I can't prove this to anyone else, nor do I feel a need to. Like I say, it may very well have been nothing more than the over-active imagination of a child. But it was still my experience none-the-less.

I would also suggest as an argument that if no one ever innately imagined a higher being, then where did the idea first originate?

Do you think it was entirely thought up solely for the purpose of scaring other people into obedience? An awful lot of cultures would have had to have come up with that idea from scratch. Yet I'm pretty sure that just about every human society on the face of the planet has created some form of supernatural superstition. Doesn't that almost demand that it's innate to the character of man?

Can't see the forest for the trees huh?

Look in the mirror.

You exist.

Who do you think you are?


JB

I think I'm me... I like me and believe in me. Who needs a space-magician to make them act right and be happy when they believe in themselves?

Exactly.

Well, not only that. But if you were the creator of a bunch of bozos wouldn't you be thrilled with the ones that could actually take care of themselves without having to lean on you?

My God! What a pleasant surprise that would be!

I've always realized that God must be just tickled pink by all the righteous atheists.

What could possible make a parent happier than to have children who are willing to be good without being threatened to be sent to their rooms, or being bribed with an allowance?

Those are the children that parents are overjoyed with!

No wonder Jesus said he'd be happy with the non-believers. What a relief!

He said that he only came for the sinners anyway. It's just that the sinners are confused and think that everyone is like them.

They just can't imagine what it must be like to be a naturally good person who doesn't need instructions on how to act proper.

Look at the witches! They've been getting along with God just fine. If those nasty Christians would just quite roasting them on spits they would have never had a problem. Now that we've made laws preventing Christians from doing that the witches are able to go back to their normal practice of healing people.

Blessed Be to all the witches!

You mean I have been a goodie two shoes for no reason?

Im going to heaven anyway?

Aww nutz!!!

Well, I might as well find a telephone book and rip the last pages out of it!!
Then they will never know whether the butler did it or not!

Disproving the word-rule "i before e, except after c", atheism is spelled with an A at the start. It is believed to be a highly secretive religion devoted to private worship of the ultimate, all powerful goddess Athe. The goal of atheists is to destroy society by persuading people to join them in their faith through cunning arguments as to why it's better than anyone else's.(see every group involving anything ever.) Legend has it that Atheists got their powers of persuasion from a four-way deal thousands of years ago between the all powerful goddess Athe, the Ghost of Christmas Past, Xenu, was supposedly left behind by Richard Dawkins, also see: Paradox.

Since Atheists are so obsessed with reason, logic, science and math(s) they call their cunning argument(s) "organized religious algorithms" and model them on a computer before heading for the street. The main technique they use is to walk around a typical busy church shouting “you worthless sinners! I am holier than thou! My beliefs are better than yours! Come to Athe Jesus or and die!”

Many religious people - such as as Satan, Kerry King and the Yeti - have claimed that Atheists don't really exist. So after intense scientific research, atheists have gone on to confirm this hypothesis, by proving beyond any doubt, that God is himself atheist.

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Atheism