I was reading a few posts here earlier today and again noticed something that is all but a guarantee when dealing with matters of faith: confusion.

Forget for a moment that there are a number of competing religions most of which practice some form of exclusivity. We can reduce it even further by pointing out that even within mainstream Christianity one can find a great deal of interpretive disparity.

Regarding scripture we have bibles such as: KJV, NKJV, the NIV, New American Standard, The Amplified Bible, Youngs Literal Translation, and that is just scratching the surface. Each Bible is somewhat different, some vary a great deal. Still, that is only the start of my point.

I understand faith as a concept and even as a practice. Faith is something that asks us to believe without absolute evidence, without absolute knowledge. It has to because if there are absolutes then faith would not be needed. I don't need faith to know that jumping off a tall building in nothing more that a business suit will likely kill me because I don't need faith to understand both gravity and the structural make-up of pavement.

But Christianity requires faith and to that end I wonder why? I could understand a God who said: Here is absolute proof of my existence, my power, my miracles, and my life. If from that point on I was asked to behave in certain ways and to have faith that in the end those things would bring me some sort of eternal peace, I might think such a thing silly but not inherently cruel.

So, why the inspired confusion? Why are there so many translations (leading people to believe in some cases that one is better than the next) and why, if God is all-powerful did He not do us the small favor of making sure that there was one version and one version alone--we'll call it "The" Version?

Digging deeper, why so much debate over interpretation of the scripture? This makes no sense to me when set beside a perfect God. Why would a God make His own word the subject of so much interpretation and debate, in many cases leading good and honest men and women to have to consult "experts" in the field of scripture?

Such things make no sense. They don't point to an organized God but rather a series of stories built upon other stories, built still upon others. In some ways, it never ends.

My point really isn't difficult to understand. There is a problem with confusion if that confusion is authored by God. If on the other hand it is confusion authored by men and God allows for it to stand it would seem to me that such a God is comfortable with such things and in no hurry to correct them.

Finally, I leave you with this: Imagine starting a new job. You arrive on the first day expecting that you will be told what to do. You develop a bit of faith, believing fully that if you show up on time, do great work, get along well with others, and produce acceptable end results, that your job will be relatively safe. That part requires faith. But there is also a manual. You were told on the phone when you were offered the job that the manual was very important and that your understanding of the information within was going to be a huge factor in how well you did.

To that end you are mentally prepared to embrace the manual and do your best to learn. You show up early on your first day and are guided to a room where you are to study what you think will be the "book" on your job. You are shocked however to find when you open the door that there are 12 manuals on the table, not one. Not only are their 12 of them but they are all somewhat different. Now, remember, your job depends on your understanding the manual. What would you conclude?

I would conclude that the organization was clumsy and unprofessional. I would be upset that they were asking of me something specific and then giving me unclear directions. I would be upset by the confusion and quite honestly would probably think it a bit of a game.

If I am expected to live a certain way, act a certain way and behave in a certain way then the way should be made clear without confusion. It should not require expert interpretation nor should it be housed in various books that differ, even if only gently.

Inspired confusion is no place to rest your mind, let alone your soul.

Sorry if this post is all over the place--I've been sort of ill and am taking some medicine right now that has my head spinning a little bit.

-Drew

WHO WANT'S TO KNOW ABOUT SCRIPTURE AT 12 AM?

What was the Q again? .... ....

What is the difference of time in which we learn of GOd? We should be eager to learn of him anytime....

KEEP LEARNIG , KEEP LEARNING .DON'T GET UPSET . EXCUSE ME PLEASE

The issue wasn't about scripture, it was about the confusion surrounding certain texts and how that lines up with God. As for who would want to learn about it--yeah, stupid me, going and posting about religion in the, wait.....yeah, the religion chat forum. :)

-Drew

Drew,

It is easy to understand your confusion. But as with anything else it's perfect till man gets involved. One thing I have found to be of great value is finding out for myself what the scriptures say. One book of great value is the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance. It takes every word in the KLV and takes it back to the original word either in Hebrew or Greek. In doing so you will find that you will get an exact view of the scriptures.

Secondly, it is easy if you stick to the basics. Don't take anybodies word for it. Stick to the words of Jesus. He was very plan spoken as you will find out.

Hi Drew,

here's a spin.

a guy reads the Bible.

sees the Holy SPirit in the metaphors and allegories and thinks its all cryptic, yet jesus as portrayed is not so cryptic.

He appaears to be the only unapologetic man in history and adamant in his message.

The guy bites.

presses in.

gets the prize.

now what?

digs around where this came from for some deeper coherence ot it, but meanwhille the Holyy Spirit is now, and dealing with now, each day, never changing.

and those old words come to life here and there because of the now with the Holy Spirit.

Some of the scrutiny going backwards into the writings is to find some more congruence to the now that is yielding further comprehension of the nuances written of so long ago.

moving forwards and looking backwards merge in reproof.

That can become a habit.

many get the bug.

as far as institutions go, they come and go in every generation. Some belligerently, some honorably, build tradition. But they are still ancillary. They are not the husband of the truth, just the helpmates. LOL humor, Drew.

Lives change, people setttle down, more lives come in, more lives change, more lives settle down.

It's fun for some.

a borderline obsession for others.

I will never understand the depths plumbed by sports fans.

Nothing snide, here. I am a racer. We race. we can win. we compete. it's a passion. It's an obsession for most. But the fans of auto racing have so many things tyo do besides watching races. That is not for me. I don't watch racing much. It bugs me if I am not in the pits and our team is not on the track. There is nothing there, really, not to me. But the fans love all this stuff. We don't race for the fans. LOL if they weren't there, it wouldn't matter. LOL just saying.....

It is simple.

Apart from the awesome splendor of fellowship with the Creator, we all have something to do.

everyone wants something to do.

a lot about life is that simple. LOL

I think the above paragraph encapsulates the spirit and point of your entire post Drew and I'm in completely agreement with you wholeheartedly.



I'm afraid this doesn't wash True One. This is one place where the blame cannot be shifted onto men. If God has a message for mankind it is entirely up to God to be absolutely certain that his message is delivered to each and ever man in perfect tact.

There is absolutely no justification for a judgmental God to be sloppy in communicating what he except from the people he intends to judge. There is no excuse for such behavior even for a godhead. Sloppiness of message is inexcusable. Especially for a deity who is claiming to be a fatherly figure. A fatherly figure deity who exhibits poor parenting skills is totally inexcusable. You can't push that one off onto man.



I'm sorry True One but again your word do not ring true. They may ring true for you personally, however, that isn't good enough. And the reason follows:

To reduce Christianity to a "Personal Walk with God" cannot work. At least not as a religion for the masses. Sure, it may work for some individuals. But if Christians can't agree with each other on what the personal walk entails then as a religion for the masses it falls flat on its face.

In order to Christianity to work as nothing more than a "Personal Walk with God". All Christians would need to agree that it is completely and entirely unimportant how their brothers "Walk with God".

But that's not the tenet of the religion. The religion itself divides those who 'follow Jesus" and those who do not.

This is, in fact, why I cannot become a Christian. In order for me to follow the teachings of Jesus, I would need to denounce about 99% of the rest of the so-called Holy Scriptures.

I could not teach the teachings of Jesus under the guidelines of the religion called "Christianity".

In fact, I just had a very lucid dream a few moments ago just before I got up. Funches (a poster on these forums) had suggested a bit earlier that I am actually a Christian in denial. In some sense he is true. I do in a very real sense "Worship" Jesus in a way. But not in a way that the Christian religion does.

In fact, the dream I just had was a dream of being at the Crucifixion site. Jesus was already dead and had been taken down from the cross. He was laying face down over a rock. There was a line of Christians in single file for as far as the eye could see. Each one walked up to Jesus and stabbed in him the back with a dagger, leaving the dagger in his back. Then the next, and the next and then next.

That is how I view Christianity as a religion True One. I view Christians as the people who are stabbing Jesus in the back.

You see, I wanted to teach Christianity. Not for my sake, neither for God's sake, but for men's sake.

However, the number one priority in my "Personal Walk with God" is the belief that Jesus taught not to judge others. It was my "Personal Understanding" that Jesus died for all men. Not merely for those who go through some kind of ritual to publicly proclaim that they have been "saved". In fact, it's not up to them to claim that they have been "saved". Only Jesus can make that proclamation. For anyone to claim that they have been "saved" is to strip Jesus of his authority. To stab him in the back and rape him of his divinity.

Moreover, to judge another as not being 'saved' because they don't recognize the religion is to pass judgment on them on the highest level possible. They are judging the person's relationship with God.

That is the highest judgment possible.

When Christians become judges, whether it's to proclaim their own status with God, or to denounce the relationship of others, the religion has back-fired into a hell-hole of hypocritical judgments. Precisely the opposite of what Jesus taught.

It is my own "Personal Belief" that Jesus himself taught not to push his word onto another, and not to judge them if they are not interested in hearing it.

People claim that the only way to God is through Jesus. That may or may not be true. However, even it if is true, where did Jesus ever say that a person must proclaim that relationship publicly?

Ah! Now look at what we have! A question about scripture? Where did Jesus say this? Where did Jesus say that? Who speaks for Jesus? Who interprets his words?

And that brings us right back to Drew's points. The words are totally ambiguous!

Round and round we go. Arguing about what God really wants from us!

Argue, argue, argue!

Where does it stop?

Who speaks for God?

Clearly the books we have are totally ambiguous!

That is the only TRUTH that we truly have!

Therefore, if Christianity is to be reduced to a "Personal Walk with God", then no man has a right to say whether he has or has not been "saved" or whether any other man has or has no been "saved".

In fact, since the words of Jesus are so ambiguous we can't even be sure that it is required to recognize that name, or that person. Buddha may very well have also been "Jesus" in a spiritual sense. Who's to say?

No one can say with certainty. And they have no right to pass judgments on their fellow man.

If Christians, want to make their religion a "Personal Walk with God" let them do so and quit passing judgments on the personal walk of other men with the creator of their souls.

No more "Judgmental Christianity". To be a Christian Judge is to spit in the face of Jesus.

Christian must learn to denounce the judging of others in the name of Jesus. And that means to stop judging non-believers as being "outside" of the scope of God.

God has no 'scope'. To judge another man's relationship with his maker is to spit in the face of Jesus.

If there's any truth to Jesus it must be found in his teachings of how not to judge another.

Rhetoric along the lines of "I'm saved, your not", is the words of an anti-Christ.

As soon as the religion is used to judge another it places just one more dagger in the back of Jesus.

Hypocritical judgmentalism in the name of Jesus has got to cease.

WOW! This is a great question. I have been trying to inject this line of discussion but to no result.

This is EXACTLY the place I'm at. By their questions I find many here completely leave out the concept of God's divinity & what it means for us while we live here on earth.

I just want to say this to you, I can say that even though I haven't experienced everything about God I can believe His word is true by what I have experienced. I don't despise the days of small beginnings either. Everything we do that takes us closer to God is worthy.

I came to that conclusion in the discussions about the tree of life & the virgin birth, the big bang theory etc. Redy wanted me & FC to ask God about something that I really wasn't that interested in & that's when it hit me. I don't need to know everything to know that ALL of God's word is true because of the experiences I do have.

God doesn't count time or success like we do. God's divinity supercedes the physical limits of ordinary life. What about the signs & wonders, & miracles performed in His name that happen every day? Should we discount those?

I know it's hard to start...but I had to ask God to bring me into agreement with Him when I admitted that I didn't agree with Him. Unbelief will blind us & close our minds to what God is saying to us...what His will is for us...and in His ability to guide our steps. I see it with many here who post.

Challenge: My wish for all is to ask God to bring them into agreement with Him on something they don't agree on, & see if he doesn't do it.

I have to agree with the OP in the sense that most of the times when the ego of man is bigger than his butt even God is reduced to what He is not.
However, I find one point very unreasonable. Asserting that if God is perfect He should have been careful enough to leave just one book with His world.
There is one book, that is the Bible. However, as in every literary piece of work, the book belongs to the audience whence it leaves the hands of the author.
Since this is a reality we have to accept the fact that every single reader will have a position when trying to understand what the author tried to say depending upon what fits better one agenda or the other.
That is why in order to read and understand the Bible it is necessary to have some sort of knowledge of several things (which I already mentioned in another thread).
The sad thing is that the Bible is used to support things like Waco, Tx or several other nonsenses.
That is why there is always good to rely in a qualified authority in order to avoid distortion, even though such authority can be deviated from the original message. Such a deviation is the result immadurity and not ill intentions.
That is why not even 2000 years has been enough to reach the level of perfection to understand the bible at its best.

Actually...God did give us a book written by His own finger...It's His commandments.

Of course not. But miracles and wonders performed don't mean a thing. The are many people who believe that we, as humans, actually have powers that we aren't totally aware of. Some refer to as "The Law of Attraction", other's refer to it as "The Power of Belief", some just think of it as teleknesis.

In other words, there are other explanations for miracles and wonders. They don't point to the Bible as being true. You say, 'miracles performed in His name'. But what about all the miracles that are performed in the name of other beliefs? What about all the people who ask for miracles in His name and they aren't answered?

Clearly this argument for any specific doctrine is meaningless. A lot of people have a spiritual experience and then go running off to the nearest "Chruch" because they have been taught to associated spiritual experiences with religion. But that doesn't mean that they are associated with religion. They could very well be a natural human ability.



I've been there and done that so many times QS. That clearly doesn't work.

Do you honestly believe that all Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., are all knowingly turning their backs on their real creator in favor of worshiping false gods?

They would have to know that this is what they are purposefully choosing to do. Otherwise they couldn't be held responsible for it. It would be totally outrageous for a God to judge innocent people for having made an honest mistake.

You can't claim that all non-Christians are knowingly choosing to turn their back on their real creator.

That can't possibly be true QS. The religion falls drastically into pieces just on that one simple truth.

It simply cannot be true that it's important to believe in the Bible for that one simple reason right there.

It can't be true QS. It's not even open to question.

It absolutely cannot be true. If there is any truth at all behind the biblical account of God it necessarily must be grossly misunderstood in terms of what he was trying to say.

Yet the Bible makes it so perfectly clear in so many places that God hates non-believers and they hate him. It claims that God has actually commanded people to kill non-believers without mercy. This is why there were so man atrocities carried out in the name of the religion. They could murder and torture heatens and use the Bible to justify that this is what God not merely wants but he demands as the duty of his followers!

That's what the book says QS, and no amount of asking God to help you ignore those facts in going to help. The best you can hope to do is brainwash yourself in to believing that God gave you permission to ignore these facts.

And that's the challenge that you're giving to eveyone. Your asking them to brainwash themselves in to believing that it's ok with God to become a bigot.

QS with all due respect, you truly do appear to be totally brainwashed to the point where you can't even seem to comprehend the problem.

None of your answers even made any sense at all with respect to what I was addressing.

You say things like,...



But what does that have to do with people innocently not knowing that they are turning away from their true creator?

Nothing you have said addresses that problem. Utimately we're talking about a God that plays quessing games. A God who shoots craps with humans souls based on whether or not they've guessed correctly because HE FAILED to make clear and umabigious his message to mankind.

If the Muslims are worshiping the Quran with the absolutely complete conviction and belief that it is indeed the word of their creator, who's fault is that?

It's would be God's fault QS and no one else's. There is no way that you can shove the blame onto the Muslims. That makes no sense at all.

If God is supposed to be a "Fatherly Image" and he's all-wise, and he can intervene to make sure that people who truly want to worship him can, then he can't just sit back and allow entire population to worship false doctrines whilst they are completely unware that this is what they are doing.

You seriously need to be brainwashed if you believe that QS because that makes no sense at all. You can claim that God is as non-human as you like. That doesn't excuse utter irresponsiblity and total unreasonableness.

You can't claim on the one hand that God is a loving "Fatherly Image" and then turn around and claim that entire populations of people have knowingly choosen to reject God in favor of worshiping false doctrines.

That's as nonsensical as nonsense gets QS.

It can't be that way.

I don't care what anyone says, God cannot be utterly absurd.

Either God is reasonable, or God is unreasonable. Appealing to the case that humans can't comprehend God's reasons is utter nonsense.

That nothing more than a brainwashing technigue to ignore the facts of the situation before you.

If a person has to brainwash themselves to become an air-head just to believe in God then there something drastically wrong with that whole picture.

You can't even seem to comprehend the problem here.

You pass it off with the lame explanation that is isn't easy to get to God?

That's utterly absurd.

It should be as easy as pie for any truly righteous person to get to God. They shouldn't have to play stupid guessing games.

What would playing stupid ill-informed guessing games have to do with being righteousness or pure of heart?

Nothing! It would have absoltuely nothing to do with being pure of heart. Therefore it's utter nonsense to believe that God would have righteous people playing stupid guessing games to save their souls.

It can't be that way. It flies in the face of God being rightesous.

You're excuse is that God's reason doesn't makes sense to humans.

But all you are saying there is that by human standards then God is indeed unreasonable.

No...I simply disagree totally with what you are saying & stating why. That's all...

You want to call it brainwashing...that's your opinion...nothing more. It's my answer to what you are saying & it really doesn't matter that you don't like what I'm saying. OK?

The real problem is that you & some of the others completely disregard the divinity of God & want to argue semantics, or there would be no argument. Having said that, in the arena of ideas on God...Christians discuss to others what faith is about. Others have the FREEDOM to believe it or not. OTOH, those who test God through His word will find it's tried & true, & God would not want it any other way.

It is not brainwashing to share God's divinity with others. What you imply ABOUT CHRISTIAN FAITH, is twisted. Not to mention, insulting others.

No matter...

No one would be foolish enough to argue against the divinity of God.

There is no arguement against that. The Muslims believe in the divinity of God every bit as much as you do. So do the Jews.

What you are trying to argue is the divinity of a book not of God.

That's where the brainwashing came in QS. You have brainwashed yourself to believe that the Bible is the word of God. And you have brainwashed yourself to hold to that conviction in the face of any reasonable evidence against it.

You worship the divinity of a book QS, not a God.

In fact, by your own admission, you have no choice but to argue the very case that God is indeed unreasonable in human terms just to salvage your belief.

You're rather believe that God is unreasonable than to face the fact that the stories in an ancient text might have actually been written by unreasonable men.

QS--the fact that you believe that some here are engaged in arguing semantics is actually complete proof of my point. Instruction from a God that wanted 1+1 to equal two would have (should have) been written in a manner and style that made semantic-based arguments look worthlessly foolish. But still there are good minds, great minds in fact, that disagree about what God/Jesus wanted.

Moral absolutes like those found in the Ten Commandments don't offer us much solace in that not bearing false witness (lying) is an absurd commandment to follow in every situation. Take for example (and this happened so there is no hypothetical involved) where German citizens hid Jews during WWII. When the SS or the Stormtroopers came knocking the Germans who were hiding the Jews risked their lives to lie. And that lie was the right thing. There is no question that it was better for them to lie in that case (when asked if they were hiding Jews) than to tell the truth.

That is not arguing semantics. That is arguing a real-world moral and ethical dilemma that should be addressed.

Abra brought up the point of the Muslim who is reading the Koran. He believes every bit as much as you that his God is right, that his way is right and that your way is wrong. He has been exposed to such teachings from the time he was a toddler. If he is wrong, how come he was born at such a disadvantage? How come the one "true" God gave him such a corrupt tool? That is not simply answered--this I realize, but it goes to the point I was trying to make about confusion.

There is so much confusion that is not semantical or argumentative but simply so many differing answers to the same question--"Who" is God?

To argue that the Bible holds those answers is "an" answer but not "the" answer. For the Muslim thinks his Koran holds the same. The Jew thinks that Torah holds the answers and on and on goes this thing of ours.

I was not trying to pick a fight with my OP. I was really trying to make the point that for a God who so heavily insists on following "His" way, He sure did us no favors by dotting the landscape with thousands of other ways, all competing for the same soul.

-Drew

Drew,

It's not about moral absolutes... It's about the faith it takes to line up with God's divinity.

Something most here want to completely discard as foolishness..in spite of the testimony of many.

That's my point.