nite G -

Well, in all honesty Miles, I don't see anything wrong with the way you believe then if I understand you correctly.

Are you saying that we are indeed judged by our WORKS and not by what we believe or don't believe?

That would certainly make sense to me. It would also seem fair and just. But that's certainly not what I see in the Biblical stories when I read the King James Version of the Bible.

Moreover, if that's true then it doesn't matter what a person believes. All that matters is how they behave. So there would no need for all this division between believers and non-believers. People like Jeanniebean and myself would be perfectly acceptable to God just as we are (assuming, of course, that we're really as nice as we are pretty )

According to most Christians the big deal is in the recognition and acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Lord. But that has nothing to do with how a person behaves.

I've often said that even if I were going to convert to Christianity it wouldn't have a major impact on my lifestyle. I wouldn't need to do anything any different from what I already do. In other words, I wouldn't need to change my behavior to become a Christian, unless they expect me to be bigoted toward non-believers, then I'd have to decline.

I think, you understanding of the bible is quite different from most Christian churches preach. Most Christian churches are pretty obsessed with the absolute need to recognize and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord. Nothing short of that is acceptable. Good behavior is totally meaningless to those people. It's utterly worthless if you refuse to recognize that Jesus is God according to them.

Well I'm going to work on learning how to do that and then I'm coming to see you and I intend to smack you up side the head to test the integrity of my body's density manifestation. . Then, in the blink of an eye, I will be gone.

After all, if we are living in a holographic matrix and our bodies are holographic projections, we should be able to project our form anywhere we direct it.

I'll work on that. But first, I'de like to loose a few pounds so I won't have to manage all that extra material. That would be too man extra wave forms to transport.

JB

what the difference is.. Is it what you know.. What you believe is true.

If yahweh is fair and he is. If someone truely just does not believe and is not of a frame of mine to do evil. Then they are judged by thier works.

The scriptures talk about you are accountable for what you know. This would mean believe also.

The scare tactic came in the church way back when the wars started over belief.

The scriptures are peaceful. Yet they can be horrific if you hurt the innocent.

The bible is alot about the innocent.

This same reasoning as today is the same as when Yahshua with just a little twist to it.

That being then the law was added to to rule the people because jews do not believe in the dostrine of hell.

Now the dostrine of hell and fear comes in to justify the ones in power.

Both work on fear not of Yahweh. But fear of what man tells you will happen if you do not listen or do as they say.

What man has always been about who has the Most Power. Blessings...Miles

Well, I think the world would be a wonderful place if all believers viewed the biblical stories the way you do Miles.

Perhaps, they'd leave the non-believers alone.

In all honesty, I could even believe in the stories to some degree if I'm 'allowed' to believe that Jesus truly only came for the sinner, like he said he did.

I would simply hold that he didn't come for my sake, because I'm not a sinner. That would be my honest 'belief'.

Although, in truth I would still continue to disbelieve in the biblical picture overall for many other reasons. I have problems with the whole idea of blood sacrifcies washing away sins in the first place. To me that just doesn't sound like something that a truly wise deity would require of people.

I would have much more respect (and therefore be more apt to believe) in a deity that actaully required some sort of positive community service to pay for sins. Seems to me that would represent the chracter of a truly wise creator.

I just don't see the wisdom in asking people to slaughter animals to pay for their misbehavior. And that's the foundation of the whole idea of Christ being the sacrificial lamb. Wihtout that initial need for blood sacrifices it would have never culminated into a need for a crucifixion to pay for sins via the sacrifical lamb of God.

So even if the story can be made to be 'benevolent' I still have personal problems with the wisdom exhibited by such a God. Especially a God who is supposed to be the ultimate Fatherly Image. To me, a father who asks for blood sacrifices to pay for disobedience is already in need of a shrink. I can think of a myriad of things to ask people to do to pay for their sins that would be far more positive, constructive, and meaningful than that.

So even if the God can be made righteous and benevolent, I still have a problem with its apparent lack of wisdom and parenting skills.

I mean, it's suppose to be the epitome of wisdom! It shouldn't be acking like the dumb klutz that lives next door to me. I wouldn't think much of a human father who told their children they had to slaughter and animal everytime they disobeyed him. Seems to me he should be having them do some positive community service or something to pay for their disobedience.

You know,... something constructive and meaninful?

What are they suppose to learn by having to slaughter an innocent animal everytime they disobey their father?

I'm afraid I just can't see the wisdom in that.

That's a totally meaningless concept for me.

I'm willing to trust that God is fair. If that's the case then I'm home free whether I believe in the Bible or not. And so are all the other non-believers who are truly benevolent in their own right.

I can live with people who believe in the Bible as long as they aren't telling me that I'm doing something wrong by not believing in it. That's what causes all the problems. They won't accept that I can be 'in grace with God' without believing in the bible.

They demand that I'm rejecting God. How can they respect me when they believe that I'm rejecting God? How can I respect them when they are judging me to be 'out of grace' with God?

They've got to learn that non-believers can indeed be 'in grace with God".

Instead of trying to convert the world to all become bigots, they need to convert themselves into non-bigots and accept that non-believers can be 'in grace' with God.

Abra;

I read your post to Miles, and most of the things you've written over the past year, and - though you may not think so - I understand your perspective, and why you believe what you do about the God of scripture. You are a compassionate caring person - and though you tend to let your sarcasm get a bit vicious at times - and through your enthusiasm - you at times - over state your case a tad (as we all have a tendency to do) and maybe use a bit of flawed logic every now and then, there is no doubt that you post with sincerity, and genuine concern.

That being said - there are two key aspects that you did not bring up in your post to Miles, that I do not dismiss lightly. In addition to all of the attributes you listed for God - you did not mention Rightiousness, and Justice. I include those attributes in my understanding of God, and tend to think that this difference accounts for why we see the God of scripture differently. We also see the scriptures themselves differently. Often times you refer to God as "demanding" - that the scriptures are nothing more than a "set of rules to be followed, and not to be disagreed with" - else eternal punishment awaits. In this, our perspective differs as well. To me - it is more like a list of actions that bring with it a certain consequence. Like rules in a game. I liken it to football - or basketball. Games where teams are involved, and the chance to break a rule exists on every play. Very often, every play a rule is broken - but the one who breaks the rule is not necessarily caught on every play, and does not suffer the consequence of a flag being thrown, and yards being marked off. There is a certain amount of "injustice" there for the fan who watches it happen to their team, and the referee not seeing it. Well - life is like that. Every day - someone, somewhere is breaking a rule, and getting away with it. Or so they think.
If there's no immediate consequence (or instant karma if you will) - most think they're fine with what occured, unaware that there may be a ripple effect, beyond their perception, that does an injustice to many. We all "pay" for those who steal. The price tags reflect the expectation of it. The price of gas alone is the consequence to all for the greed of few. But who is to blame for this injustice - the one who established the "rules" - or they who break them? It isn't hard to see that life here on earth - with it's potential and rewards, can be as good as it gets.
Yet - for a majority on this planet, it is not.
All I need to see is a commercial with Sally Struthers to know this fact. I just don't see this injustice as part of a problem with God - but with man. When I see people willfully, and maliciously take advantage of their position and circumstance in life to the detriment of many, I
want a sense of justice to prevail. Especially when they think their actions are justified, and without consequence - (provided they don't get caught), and who, given the chance - would do it over and over again. To me - I want an individual like this to "change there ways". Forget even that God wishes this - I desire it.
If they are just so set in their ways that they'd rather keep it up - than I have no compassion for how they spend eternity - the choice is theirs to make. It is the consequence of their actions - not an angry and unjust God's. I don't think it too much to ask that people be rightious. There's no reason not to be - other than greed, selfishness and self centeredness. What place does someone like this have in an eternity with those who chose to be rightious?

If you could answer that question for me - I would have an easier time seeing the difficulty you have with my believing the God of scripture does exist.

I can understand your view on this Eljay. But at the same time, you're fully accepting that the 'rule book' is legit. I think what you have to realize is that a lot of people are looking at the rule book and saying, "No way! I don't believe that God would right these rules!"

Well, clearly gay people aren't going to feel that God would be against them. Why should they believe that God wrote that rule book?

Also, when it come to modern Christianity it isn't just limited to the rules. I don't necessarily break the biblical rules, at least certainly no more than any average Christian probably does. But that's not good enough for the Christians. They aren't concerned with whether or not I break the biblical rules. All they care about it that I confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and that the Bible is indeed God's rule book.

I think if a deity expects people to recognize a rule book as being his, he'd have to step forth and point it out to them personally. He can't expect them to be accepting the word of other people who claim that it's God's word. Especially when they can't give any good reasons of why it should be.

In other words, if a God is going to write a rule book and expect people to recognize that it's his word he's obligated to make sure that they know its his word without any ambiguity. He can't expect them to merely have faith that it might be his word. I've you've been reading my posts long enough, you know that I say that a God who plays Hide & Seek can't simultaneously blame people who don't believe he exists, or even people who do believe he exists but who don't believe that the bible has anything to do with him.

That's the problem with your analogy of rule books Eljay. When you play football or whatever, you know what the rule book is for that game. But there's no reason why you should believe that the Bible is the rulebook for life. Just because it claims to be the rule book of God doesn't make it so. After all, if you believe that all men are sinners, and men wrote the bible then why would you trust them to be telling the truth???



Well, the difficulty is two-fold.

First, as I've just explained. There's no reason why anyone should believe that the bible is God's rule book.

And the second point, is what I just told Miles, the scriptures do not portray what I would consider to be a good fatherly figure. In all truthfulness Eljay, IMHO the biblical God is a terrible father-figure. He's totally inept as a parent. He has no sense of mentoring skills at all. His messages are mixed, and his examples are violent. Why's he asking people for blood sacrifices to pay for disobeying him?

That just doesn't strike me as a wise way to mentor children. What kind of a message does that send? It's ok to disobey me as long as you're willing to slaughter a lamb????

I have to ask myself very simply,... is this something that an all-wise, all-intelligent creator of this universe would ask people to do? A supposed "Father-figure" no less????

I don't think so. I don't believe that an all-wise, all-perfect, all-loving, all-intelligent supreme being would do that.

Now, I have to ask myself,... is this something that superstitious men would make up?

Unfortunately, knowing how stupid humans are, yes, this sounds precisely like something they would make up.

So which should I believe?

1. An all-wise, all-intelligent creator is behind these stories?

Or

2. Unwise superstitious humans made them up?

Well, we're all free to believe whatever we want.

I'll go with number two as being the most likely scenario.

Which do you honestly believe is most likely?

Now let me address this question from an entirely different point of view.

First off, let's think about the bigger picture,...

You're assuming that our souls are created at birth and we have one shot at life.

I don't believe that way.

I believe in reincarnation. I believe that we live many lives.

You believe, I imagine, that anyone can be 'saved' at any time that they repent and sincerely see the error of their ways?

Is that true? A terribly evil person could theoretically have a change of heart on his death bed after having done horrifically terrible things his whole life long, and he would be 'saved' assuming that he truly does have remorse for his evil ways. It has to be this way because Jesus cannot refuse anyone who repents. God isn't allow to reject us if we sincerely repent, only we are permitted to reject God. There is always hope! That's the Christian view, anyone can be 'saved'.

So even by your belief system, people who have done terrible things, can theoretically get into heaven if they eventually repent and are 'saved' by the grace of Jesus.

Ok, so why does life need to be a one-shot deal?

Take this very same scenario just a little bit further. Let humans live many lives. They do not reach nirvana (heaven) until they realize the error of their ways and sincerely repent.

Welcome to Pantheism!

Oh yeah! It's the same deal, except in Pantheism there's no need for hell. People just continue to be reincarnated until they finally realize that they are azzholes. Then they repent and move on to nirvana (heaven)

In this scenario there are no losers. God's love is truly unconditional. Everyone ends up in heaven with no exceptions.

~~~

Now the typical reaction that most Christians have with this is the following,....

They say, "In other words, I can run around and murder, cheat, steal, and pillage to my heart's content and it won't matter because I have endless chances to get into heaven"

Well, yes, that's absolutely correct. So what?

Is that what Christians want to do?

Are they chomping at the bit to sin like hell if they think they can get away with it?

Are those the kind of people we're going to find in the Christian heaven?

Is heaven going to be full of people who are lusting to sin but only refrain from doing it because of the promise of eternal life?

How sad if that's all that Christians are.

They'd just be evil people who are restraining themselves to win eternal life.



For me, Eljay, the question of morals isn't even a religious question. I don't turn to religion for my moral values. I don't need to be threatened by a God in order to be a good person Eljay. I don't need to be promised eternal life to be a good person.

It doesn't matter to me whether there is a God or not Eljay. I don't base my behavior on whether or not an external being exists.

I am what I am.

That's the bottom line.

If you are only good because you think a God wrote a 'rule book' and will punish you if you break the rules then isn't that truly sad?

This is why a religion that is solely focused on sin and salvation has no meaning for me Eljay. I need a religion that goes beyond that.

Abra....Abra....Abra..... ...listen my friend..... .

There are certain hidden mysteries in God's Word ,that will not make sense, and remain hidden to man...and cannot be revealed to man, until man's spirtual eyes are opened.....but until then, the Word of God will appear as contradiction and foolishness to man, whose eyes are not yet opened.

And the way of course, that a man's eyes can be opened to Understand the hidden mysteres of God's Word, is when he finally believes and accepts Jesus as Lord..by FAITH.
And MEAN it....

So you see Abra, certian hidden meanings in God's Word will REMAIN hidden to you.....and will NOT be revealed to you, UNTIL you Beleive.

God planned it that way.. simply because He gave man a FREE WILL to Come to Him WILLINGLY..by FAITH..and WHEN man DOES, the mystery and hidden things in God's Word will THEN be revealed to him.

And it is not that God is playing hide and seek..it is that God is WAITING for you to SEEK HIM WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART first...AND COME TO HIM WILLINGLY.......

WILLINGLY.....

WILLINGLY.......

SO THAT GOD CAN REVEAL TO YOU WHAT HE IS LONGINGLY AND PATIENTLY WANTING TO REVEAL TO YOU!!!!

BUT GOD CAN'T REVEAL WHAT HE WANTS TO REVEAL, CAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE SENSE OF IT....AND YOU WON'T.....NOT UNTIL YOUR SPIRITUAL EYES ARE OPENED.

ABRA.... YA GOTTA COME TO THE LORD WITH AN OPEN AND WILLING HEART...BELIEVING BY FAITH .
THAT IS THE ONLY ONLY ONLY WAY,
THE HIDEN MEANINGS AND MYSTERIES OF GOD'S WORD WILL FINALLY MAKE SENSE TO YOU.

AGAIN.... GOD PLANNED IT THAT WAY..THAT MAN SHOULD COME TO HIM BY FAITH...BELIEVING ON JESUS, THE ONE SENT TO SAVE US.

AND WHEN MAN BELIEVES ON JESUS BY FAITH,THEN AND ONLY THEN DOES GOD OPEN UP THE TREASURY OF UNDERSTANDING TO A MAN'S HEART....ALONG WITH PRESENTING TO HIM ALSO, ALL THE GIFTS AND PROMISES GOD HAS IN STORE JUST WAITING FOR HIM, WHEN MAN FINALLY BELIEVES AND RECIEVES JESUS.

MAN ABRA....GOD IS JUST WAITING TO BLESS YOU WITH SO MUCH....SO VERY MUCH!!!
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!!

But Abra?
IF you don't believe ,and IF you don't want this free gift of grace?
Along with all the gifts and promises God has waiting in store for you?

Quess what....

The Holy Sprit is a gentleman..... .and God surely is not going to force you to believe and recieve that free gift of Grace offered.


Here is an article explaining it a bit better.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Contradictions in the Bible—Why Are They There?

The Bible has many seeming contradictions within its pages. For example, the four Gospels give four differing accounts as to what was written on the sign that hung on the cross. Matthew said, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (27:37). However, Mark contradicts that with “The King of the Jews” (15:26). Luke says something different: “This is the King of the Jews” (23:38), and John maintains that the sign said “Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews” (19:19).

Those who are looking for contradictions may therefore say, “See—the Bible is full of mistakes!” and choose to reject it entirely as being untrustworthy. However, THOSE WHO TRUST GOD have NO problem harmonizing the Gospels. There is no contradiction if the sign simply said, “This is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews.”

The godly base their confidence on two truths:

1) “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16);
and
2) an elementary rule of Scripture is that God has deliberately included seeming contradictions in His Word to “snare” the proud.
He has “hidden” things from the “wise and prudent”
and
“revealed them to babes” (Luke 10:21), purposely choosing foolish things to confound the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27).


Abra...I truly believe you have a tender loving kind heart..but you are rebellious ,simply because you refuse to do it God's way... and also because God's Word doesn't make sense.

But again, God's Word WON'T EVER Make sense....NOT UNTIL YOU COME TO GOD IN FAITH..BELIEVING HE IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS...AND WHEN YOU DO.......THEN THEN THEN and ONLY THEN , WILL GOD'S WORD FINALLY MAKE SENSE .
CAUSE THEN GOD OPENS YOUR EYES TO HIS FULL UNDERSTANDING..BUT HE FIRST WAITS FOR YOU TO COME TO HIM ...TRUSTING LIKE A LITTLE CHILD...BY FAITH!!'
THAT IS ALL GOD REQUIRES....MAN'S FAITH TO BELIEVE ON THE ONE SENT...JESUS OUR SAVIOUR.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Abra.....
just ASK God to HELP you beleive.

You know, God WILL meet you right where you are..but God surely can't do anything with your constantly thinking you know God better than God.
Amen?

ASK God to open your eyes to His truth now.
Ok?


Spoken in love, my friend.....

What does a guy need to do?!?!?

Put up a thread title that reads:

'... INVITING ONLY 'BEING RELIGIOUS' PEOPLE.

CHRISTIANS ONLY (and GOOD ONES AT THAT) , WHOM WISH TO POLISH UP ON THEIR PROSELYTIZING SKILLS ON THE ONE HAND,
... AND COUNTER 'BEING RELIGIOUS' FOLKS ON THE OTHER HAND, WHOM WISH TO OPPOSE THEM WITH THEIR FAVORITE BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS.

ANYONE WHOM WISHES TO DISCUSS RELIGIONS, ALL RELIGIONS, FROM A HISTORY OF RELIGIONS PERSPECTIVE, STAY AWAY!!!...'

Given how the OP of this thread is totally disregarded, maybe its correlate opposite inivitation and topic will also get the 'WRONG' posters???

But hey!!! Carry on bible exclusive fans, and counter biblical jousters, let the reptilian brain loose, and permeate ALL the threads with your unconscious 'crusades'!!!

With all due respect 'morningsong', I think you are missing the mark with his post of yours.

Abra doesn't need to ask god to open his eyes.

Like me and many others around these posts, Abra is 'plugged' on 'god' directly ! 'God' inhabits him, as he does you and all of us.

I suggest you might ask 'god' (not your god, nor his god, nor their god, but god period), to open your heart and eyes, such that you can recognize god inhabited people with 'different clothing'!!!

Your 'picture' of god is personnal to you 'morningsong', and that is all fine. But it matteres none to anyone else.

Should I happen to have a similar picture of 'god' as yo hold 'morningsong', we would very simply and quite inconsequentially share a SIMILAR PICTURE together.

It would be THE PICTURE we would share, NOT 'GOD' !!!

God isn't the picture!!! Not yours, not mine, not the bible's, not any oher so called sacred book!!! 'God' is not a picture of 'god'.

If you KNOW that YOU have a clear pictute of 'god' for yourself, witch connects you to 'god' in a manner that nourishes YOU, then you must recognize NOW that Abra and many others on these threads, whom do not necessarily share 'YOUR PICTURE' of god, STILL SHARE 'GOD' WITH YOU!!!

That's all that should matter to you, as for 'god', the HUMAN IT ?!?!?! matters none!!!

Respectfully.

it seems amazing the motive and intent of such self wisdom is actually accepted by any, but then it is only ever accpeted by a spirit of FEAR within one that could EVER accpet such profaming of truth that does exist........

what is rebellious that god has not made rebellious to RESIST such twisted half truths of deception.........

god was only said to be truth, and love, and not some mental picture the mind create that inspire all such words, and god was said to reside in the heart of EACH one that condem not others, so the TRUTH has to point each one back to themself, not say "COME AND FOLLOW ME, I KNOW THE WAY"

please, each of these words spoken will have to be forgiven by all spoken to, and each one pointed INWARD, for one to EVER find love again in their own heart.........

where is this god in your heart, that condem all others as ignorant and unwise and lost and stubborn and selfish?

what that declare their own interpretation to be truth, and that declare their own wisdom has any?

this be nothing more then a spirit of self holiness that has blinded the world for centuries, but indeed the time has come of SIGHT, that all see these that utter such atocities against their fellow man, are decieved by complete greed of self reward, self reward, self adulation, given over to blindness that come from seeking to save oneself........

each and every words here come from a persepctive of self enlightenment, and why any wisdom of GOD in each and every heart see thur it with clarity.........

each thing you have accused your dear brother and friend of is found in your heart, and show forth thru each and every word spoken......

go and do all you ask abra to do, and then come back with a clean heart that see all as EQUAL......peace

TRIBO:


that is because you are trying to seperate yourself instead of staying in the shell you have, your on the right track but there is much more to know yet. ok im finished no more talk of this sorry.

jb:

Well I'm going to work on learning how to do that and then I'm coming to see you and I intend to smack you up side the head to test the integrity of my body's density manifestation. . Then, in the blink of an eye, I will be gone.

After all, if we are living in a holographic matrix and our bodies are holographic projections, we should be able to project our form anywhere we direct it.

I'll work on that. But first, I'de like to loose a few pounds so I won't have to manage all that extra material. That would be too many extra wave forms to transport.

tribo;

Your not living in a holographic matrix - sorry

you'll have all the density you need all 4 tons of you if you like -

when we came here we were much like we are now in form, that has not changed even today. nor will it. your teaching or guessings are wrong on the Holomat. you are complete in all but mind, that is the fault of time and loss of who we were at the beginning of being here.thats true of all of us.

Well I am growing some wings and my skin is getting a bit rough like a reptile.

I figure in a few more years I will be a full grown dragon!

john your already a full grown dragon in your mind, thats as far as it will go -

all will be explained when i finish and publish my book. be patient.

indeed, as a tough skin can care for others, and wings carry many to safety.........

This, Morningsong, and your entire post is your very personal belief. It is not held by others, nor is it truth for anyone but you. But you certainly have a right to express your belief.

JB

okay and that book I want signed! That way it grows in value. Not that I will sell it or anything. lol

all are safe in my haven

Until you have and are willing to share your information and evidence, I shall have to disregard your assertions. You make a statement and expect me to believe you on faith just as religions do.

They are your personal beliefs or opinion, which of course you have a right to. I have my own reasons for how I think reality is constructed and that it is made up of wave forms and frequencies.

Sorry, but if you are not willing to share your information, I cannot evaluate it and so for me, you are simply blowing air

JB