yes - killing is bad. war is awful.

War crimes such as Hamas terrorism is abhorrent.
Worse than war. Crimes which are not even tolerated in wartime.

you know like intentionally bombing a busload of kids.

give you an example. Hamas bombs a busload of kids.
On hearing of the casualties they hold a parade. Throw candies.

OK - we're all agreed that Hamas are terrorists now.
Good. Got that cleared up.



Now, about Israel.

1. They don't intentionally bomb schoolbuses of kids.
Never happened.

2. They do attack military targets such as those who
are trying to launch rockets at their houses. I think
that's only fair. After all - they have to protect themselves.

3. If anyone does attack kids in Israel. They have no
parties. They arrest the killer and prosecute just like in
the good old USA, Canada, Switzerland, France, and even
Iceland and Japan.

4. So - Israel is no more of a terrorist
state than Canada and the others.

There you have it.

Hamas - terrorists.
Israel - just another country trying to defend itself.

yeah - there is a dispute over land just like so many
other countries around the world. the arabs have no more
claim on the land than the israelis.

anger over the land dispute does not justify
bus, cafe, and market bombings. however someone
shooting at your house and throwing bombs at
your grocery store does warrant an attempt to
protect yourself. i don't fault Israel for it.
i blame the terrorists for the attacks - Hamas,
Islamic Jihad, Al Qaida, Hizbullah and the other
terrorist organizations.

Israel killed innocent Palestinians , stole their homes , made millions of refugees......etc. Israel is one of the biggest terrorist on earth .

Evidently you are blind or in denial!!!

April 20, 1936 2 Arab workers in a banana plantation killed -
March, 1937 2 Arabs killed on Bat-Yam beach -
April 12, 1938 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. -
April 17, 1938 An Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa -
May 17, 1938 An Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road. -
May 24, 1938 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa. -
June 23, 1938 2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv. -
June 26, 1938 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa. -
June 27, 1938 An Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa. -
July 5, 1938 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv. -
On the same day 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. -
On the same day an Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem. -
July 6 1938 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab Melon market in Haifa. -
July 8, 1938 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. -
July 16, 1938 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. -
July 25, 1938 53 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. -
August 26, 1938 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. -
February 27, 1939 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa
and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem. -
May 29, 1939 5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem. -
On the same day 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas. -
June 2, 1939 5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem -
June 12, 1939 A post office in Jerusalem was bombed, killing a British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs. -
June 16, 1939 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem. -
June 19, 1939 20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa. -
June 29, 1939 13 Arabs were killed in multiple shootings during one-hour period. -
June 30, 1939 An Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem. -
On the same day 2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta. -
July 3, 1939 An Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. -
July 4, 1939 2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem. -
July 20, 1939 An Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa. -
On the same day 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel-Aviv. -
On the same day 3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot. -
August 27, 1939 2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem.


Those all happened before their was a war!
All attacks like Markets Buses, trains, Markets, markets, markets, markets, buses, trains, markets, markets, markets were almost all against indiscriminate civilian populations!

Women and Children!!!!

the late thirties civil war
predating israel - two warring populations.

not terrorism. not equivalent.

Irgun and Stern Gang were using terror tactics to get rid of Arabs from what was seen as as Jewish lands. They were attacking to force Britain into giving them the area of Israel.

Note that they also attacked British police stations and military targets.

An area which was by the way promised to the Palestinians during WW2 by Britain. Hence the name 'British Protectorate of Palestine'.

If it was simply a civil war and the Irgun and Stern Gang were not terrorists because they were attacking to try and create a homeland then neither are Hamas for doing same.

civil war with the Brits caught in the middle.

not bus bombings - not cafe bombings - not marketplace bombings
not deliberate mass civilian casualties - not comparable.

i'm not saying there wasn't fighting. just not terrorism
in the modern sense of the word. generally there were
military targets - not civilian - for example the oft-cited
King David Hotel attack was an assault on the Brit military
housed there not on civilian hotel guests. even so, many
zionists at the time condemned the loss of innocent life
whenever it occurred. there was never a policy to attack
civilians. to imply such is wrong and historically inaccurate.

if you want to look at the map and the partition plan,
again, i refer you back to:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf3.html

You're wrong!!!
The Israeli policy was to cleanse Palestine of Palestinians,
They cared not if they killed women and children and did it on the assumption that they had a religious right to do so.

You have been reading way too much of their propaganda and not enough of the truth.
Its all right there for you to see. Even the words of Shamir, a terrorist who became their PM. Begin as well, the two of them were sadistic murders who thought it their right to kill anyone who stood in the way of them taking over Palestine.

When the UN chose to divide Palestine into two countries giving 70% of the land to Israel-30% of the population, and 30% of the land to the rightful occupants-70% of the population, even that wasn't good enough for them. They ignored the UN, declared Independence and set out to take it all.

The terror that I showed you begin way before that. Back to a time when the Zionist movement was new and the Jews were only 3%-10% of the population.
The Jews had left mostly on there own almost 1500 yrs earlier after be defeated by the Romans. They had no right legally to any of the land, and could never have executed the Zionist movement on their own. What they did was bite the hand that had fed them (the British) because they think they are Gods chosen people and have this divine right to do what they want.
They still act like that and have no intentions of giving the Palestinians even a small piece of land to live in peace.
If the US didn't help them they wouldn't last long. Further more they would not think twice about lighting up have the ME with the stolen Nuclear technology they stole from us. Even if they had to fire on us!

The Stern Gang was offering to help the Nazi's during WWII. They thought they could make a deal and get Britain out of Palestine,
They thought Hitler would let them establish an Israeli state in return for their allegiance!!

Talk about making a deal with the Devil!!

Irgun attacks

* November 14, 1937 - 6 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Jerusalem.
* April 12, 1938 - 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. public train = terrorism
* April 17, 1938 - An Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa public cafe = terrorism
* May 17, 1938 - An Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road. public bus = terrorism
* May 24, 1938 - 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa.
* June 23, 1938 - 2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv.
* June 26, 1938 - 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa.
* June 27, 1938 - An Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa.
* July 5, 1938 - 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv.
* On the same day, 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem.[public bus = terrorism
* On the same day, an Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem.
* July 6 1938 - 18 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. public place = terrorism
* July 8, 1938 - 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem.
* July 16, 1938 - 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem.public place = terrorism
* July 26, 1938 - 27 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.public place = terrorism
* August 26, 1938 - 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa.public place = terrorism
* May 29, 1939 - 5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem.public place = terrorism
* On the same day, 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas.
* June 4, 1939 - 5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem.public place = terrorism
* June 12, 1939 - A post office in Jerusalem was bombed, killing a British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs.public place = terrorism
* June 16, 1939 - 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem.
* June 20, 1939 - 78 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa.public place = terrorism
* June 26, 1939 - 19 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa.
* June 30, 1939 - An Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
* On the same day, 2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta.
* July 3, 1939 - 18 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.public place = terrorism
* July 4, 1939 - 2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem.
* July 20, 1939 - An Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa.
* On the same day, 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel-Aviv.
* On the same day, 3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot.
* August 27, 1939 - 2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem.


........................................

From MI5 records

http://www.mi5.gov.uk/print/Page337.html

....................................

The Case for Palestine An International Law Perspective

http://books.google.com/books?id=VaUvqHNd6m0C&pg=PA58
&lpg=PA58&dq=irgun+attacks&source=web&ots=Q34kR2IST2&sig=
5jI9mdK6b21uJkazFaMHsslmWtw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result


Had to break up link so it would fit.

...........................

Washington Report, May/June 2006, pages 14-15

Special Report
Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs
By Donald Neff

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2006/0605014.html



Another interesting piece ............ Sort of reminds me of Bosnia

http://www.spectacle.org/495/deir.html

Did you see all the ones I posted Karma?
Israel

The west should quit catering to them and force them to pull back to the UN mandated borders at the least!

karma:

from your MI5 source:

"Stern Group

File refs KV 5/29-32

This collection of reconstituted files on the activities of the Stern Group (or Stern Gang, known as Lehi in Hebrew) records the Security Service's interest in this group's activities from 1941 to 1951. The Group carried out a series of attacks against British officials, police and soldiers..."

in other words - attacks against the enemy military authorities
not civilians - not terrorism.

as far as the Irgun were concerned, they also seem to have targeted
primarily those who directly attempted to thwart israeli
immigration - British military - and militant arabs who
were operating to murder jews during the civil war at the
waning days of British influence. although they were
clearly reckless in some of their attacks it is very
important to realize that the Irgun, in sharp contrast with
terrorist organizations of today such as Hizbullah, Al Qaida
and Hamas, did not have the murder of innocents as its
purpose or as its principal tactic.

Did you read this one? A village wiped out to strike terror and fear in the Arab community!!

http://www.spectacle.org/495/deir.html




This one even spells out that the intent is to create fear and terror in the Arab community and drive the Arabs out to claim their land/homes as 'abandoned'!!


The Case for Palestine An International Law Perspective

http://books.google.com/books?id=VaUvqHNd6m0C&pg=PA58
&lpg=PA58&dq=irgun+attacks&source=web&ots=Q34kR2IST2&sig=
5jI9mdK6b21uJkazFaMHsslmWtw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result


The bombing of people in a marketplace isn't terrorism?

Bombs in buses isn't terrorism?

Bomb in a hotel with 91 casualties (17 Jewish) isn't terrorism?

If none of these are terrorism then Hamas isn't guilty either. As with what occurred in Israel, Hamas is the rightful elected government of Palestine.

no - i haven't read the others but i certainly would
believe that there were incidents of civilian attacks
on BOTH sides during the 1930's timeframe when the
struggle for control of the lands between the arabs and
jews and british were hot in civil unrest.

what i reject is the characterization that this implies
terrorist culpability of israel which is false.

israel simply is not a supporter of terrorism as it is
understood in the definitions above - in sharp contrast
to the clear demonstrated policies of organizations like Hamas.

the issue of land abandonment likewise is murky. although
some arabs were obviously coerced and ostracized and
driven out by social pressure - it was not primarily through
bombs and violence. moreover, it is also clear that many
arabs did voluntarily leave and now regret it - there is
terminology "the Nakba". there is no clear consensus that
there was ever an organized expulsion policy.

finally one must guard against the impression that such
ethnic coercion was one-sided. arguably more jews were
purged out of their homes in neighboring arab lands at
this time often by force and expelled by arab authorities
forced to leave land and possessions behind. i believe
i read that these mideast origin jews make up the largest ethnic population block now in israel...

so although i have not yet read all your sources, i have
read many of the arguments. i'll probably read more....



below is a reasoned discussion of the question of forcible
expulsion of palestinian arabs from israel:

"Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel. The responsibility for the refugee problem rests with the Arabs.

The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. The first to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends. By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal their borders against them.

On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: "The first of our fifth-column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."

Another Jaffa paper, As Sarih (March 30, 1948) excoriated Arab villagers near Tel Aviv for "bringing down disgrace on us all by 'abandoning the villages.'"

Meanwhile, a leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib, said Arab soldiers in Jaffa were mistreating the residents. "They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many [Arab] residents to leave the city under the protection of British tanks."

John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war."

Contemporary press reports of major battles in which large numbers of Arabs fled conspicuously fail to mention any forcible expulsion by the Jewish forces. The Arabs are usually described as "fleeing" or "evacuating" their homes. While Zionists are accused of "expelling and dispossessing" the Arab inhabitants of such towns as Tiberias and Haifa, the truth is much different. Both of those cities were within the boundaries of the Jewish State under the UN partition scheme and both were fought for by Jews and Arabs alike.

Jewish forces seized Tiberias on April 19, 1948, and the entire Arab population of 6,000 was evacuated under British military supervision. The Jewish Community Council issued a statement afterward: "We did not dispossess them; they themselves chose this course....Let no citizen touch their property."

In early April, an estimated 25,000 Arabs left the Haifa area following an offensive by the irregular forces led by Fawzi al-Qawukji, and rumors that Arab air forces would soon bomb the Jewish areas around Mt. Carmel. On April 23, the Haganah captured Haifa. A British police report from Haifa, dated April 26, explained that "every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe." In fact, David Ben-Gurion had sent Golda Meir to Haifa to try to persuade the Arabs to stay, but she was unable to convince them because of their fear of being judged traitors to the Arab cause.15 By the end of the battle, more than 50,000 Palestinians had left.

“Tens of thousands of Arab men, women and children fled toward the eastern outskirts of the city in cars, trucks, carts, and afoot in a desperate attempt to reach Arab territory until the Jews captured Rushmiya Bridge toward Samaria and Northern Palestine and cut them off. Thousands rushed every available craft, even rowboats, along the waterfront, to escape by sea toward Acre.”

— New York Times, (April 23, 1948)

In Tiberias and Haifa, the Haganah issued orders that none of the Arabs' possessions should be touched, and warned that anyone who violated the orders would be severely punished. Despite these efforts, all but about 5,000 or 6,000 Arabs evacuated Haifa, many leaving with the assistance of British military transports.

Syria's UN delegate, Faris el-Khouri, interrupted the UN debate on Palestine to describe the seizure of Haifa as a "massacre" and said this action was "further evidence that the 'Zionist program' is to annihilate Arabs within the Jewish state if partition is effected."

The following day, however, the British representative at the UN, Sir Alexander Cadogan, told the delegates that the fighting in Haifa had been provoked by the continuous attacks by Arabs against Jews a few days before and that reports of massacres and deportations were erroneous.

The same day (April 23, 1948), Jamal Husseini, the chairman of the Palestine Higher Committee, told the UN Security Council that instead of accepting the Haganah's truce offer, the Arabs "preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings, and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town."

The U.S. Consul-General in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote on April 22, 1948, for example, that "local mufti-dominated Arab leaders" were urging "all Arabs to leave the city, and large numbers did so."

An army order issued July 6, 1948, made clear that Arab towns and villages were not to be demolished or burned, and that Arab inhabitants were not to be expelled from their homes.

The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. Yigal Allon, the commander of the Palmach (the "shock force of the Haganah"), said he had Jews talk to the Arabs in neighboring villages and tell them a large Jewish force was in Galilee with the intention of burning all the Arab villages in the Lake Hula region. The Arabs were told to leave while they still had time and, according to Allon, they did exactly that.

In the most dramatic example, in the Ramle-Lod area, Israeli troops seeking to protect their flanks and relieve the pressure on besieged Jerusalem, forced a portion of the Arab population to go to an area a few miles away that was occupied by the Arab Legion. "The two towns had served as bases for Arab irregular units, which had frequently attacked Jewish convoys and nearby settlements, effectively barring the main road to Jerusalem to Jewish traffic."

As was clear from the descriptions of what took place in the cities with the largest Arab populations, these cases were clearly the exceptions, accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees."

Deir Yassin


Wiped out by Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah to cause fear among the Arabs and cause them to leave.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE5D8163CF931A3575BC0A96E948260

"A total of 254 dead were counted by an International Red Cross official, including 145 women, of whom 35 were pregnant. Leaflets describing the massacre in detail were posted in Arab villages, and trucks with speakers broadcast in Arab Jerusalem, ''Unless you leave your home, the fate of Deir Yassin will be your fate."

This also fits with the definition of TERRORISM!!!!!

Have you read anything I posted Karma?
I've posted all that, the assassination of the UN mod, the letter bombs, the king David Hotel bombing, civilian market bombings, civilian bus bombings, trains, markets, markets, markets.
I'm beginning to think slowhand is an Israeli!!
He'll never believe the Israeli's were as bad as they were!
And believes they were right to bite the hand that fed them.

I've told him there were almost Zero Jews in Palestine in the 1890 and almost everyone of them came because the West helped them immigrate.
He gets almost all his info from the jewish library or the ADL!

He'll never accept that they are a terrorist state!

Ive even posted the archived letter from Tel Aviv to Menachem Begin directed him to blow-up the King David, and Shamir's confession of committing terrorist activities. He still wont believe it or refuses to read it one.
I give up, but I thought I might let you know that you are just repeating info he's already received!

slowhand ...
what is it that you see that is good in the israelis?

Do you agree that they do some bad stuff?

Would you agree that using an israeli fighter plane to shoot a lebanese red cross ambulance and then strafing it again is bad?

Would you agree that a publicity photo of Israeli children kissing mortar shells and writing in English, "with love from Israel" is bad.

Would you agree that bombing a school from an israeli fighter plane and killing 100 school children is bad?

You want facts? I lived through this 2 years ago!

The israelis are a bunch of murdering butchers who desire nothing more than to effect their own destruction just after they have wiped out the Palestinians and the Lebanese.

The Brits caused the problems and the Americans excacerbate the situation, but ultimately the Israelis are a highly trained, highly disciplined death squad - or terrorist!

Israel is supported by the neo cons , the hawks , the Zionists who control the US and therefore Israel can do whatever it wants and gets away with it in the security council .....etc .

double post .