could be the reason you don't get agnosticism is because you're defining the term incorrectly. a pure agnostic like me, einstein, hawking, bill gates, warren buffet, thinks that nothing is knowable in an absolute sense other than what we've experienced. agnostic atheism is a misnomer and an impossibilty. what you described is a weak atheist. being a little agnostic is like being a little pregnant. agnosticism is about the unknown and unknowable so in regards to your 'agnostic atheist' he cannot conclude if god exists and the agnostic side of him could not concieve of evidence ever possibly existing to give him a reason to believe. there simply is no such animal as an agnostic atheist. people will say otherwise but some speak of sasquach too.

cough; buddhism is not a religion as they worship no deity. cough:

ditto, name is Michel

I agree with what you said earlier about circular logic

we can agree to disagree,, neither of us are changing what we feel and I think we have re iterated the same points long enough,,,

deep in my heart,,lol

my heart feels there is a God , of course

but , I explained how that works in terms of 'absolute truth'

90 percent of what is 'true' is 'believed' to be true because it seems most probable from what one experiences and reads,,,,

my faith in God being true is no different than anothers faith that He isnt true

they discern its most probable(that he doesnt exist) from what they experience and read

I discern, for the same reason, that he does exist


I dont walk through life on shaky foundation, or waiting to be proven 'wrong' on the things I believe,, so this serves as my foundational 'truth', although I realize I cant KNOW absolutely anymore than I can know that Pluto exists(existed), I have seen neither for myself and must rely on the integrity of those who have taught and written about it,,,

I consider it, and it doesnt make sense to me. Im sane, Im logical, I have a decent IQ, A student in school. No mental or intellectual deficiencies,, I just believe its the most PROBABLE truth.

I am not a God to have any absolute truth, but I do live life on certain foundations , otherwise called my 'truth', which are based upon experience and those things MOST PROBABLE.

the point JB made however, was someone who says they KNOW God doesnt exist is no more/less delusional than someone who says they KNOW God does exist

,, however much their egos push them to believe otherwise

using realism for supernaturalism? no

using logic to explain why someone who presumes to KNOW of something 'not EXISTING' merely because of an absence of evidence

is the same as someone who presumes to KNOW of something Existing in spite of an absence of evidence


we know the earth exists,, we also know humans exist
to analyze the specifics of the earth being round or flat is just
as is to analyze the specifics of HOW and WHY humans came to exist

In Japan millions of Buddhists pray to Amida Buddha, the Buddha of Infinite Light

there is a difference in not believing into something because there is absolutely no evidence


and believing in NO THING because there is no evidence


,,,for example, In ancient times, I could have said 'I know the earth is not round'

merely because, at that point in history, there was no EVIDENCE that it was,,,,but I would still be wrong and delusional to believe that just because something had YET to be proven to exist that it meant it must not exist


I cant remember who said it but 'absence of proof is not proof of absence'

not all religions pray?

prayer: A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship


so which religion doesnt allow or have people in it who request help or express thanks to someone or something they worship?

Instead of saying "come on" maybe you could rally the people together to stop the decline that has taken place since 1962.

I say as an American bring on any peaceful rally you can make happen to bring us back to our senses.

Have you even looked at the rise of crime since "62" historically?

sure, no real scientest would make such a claim but a strong atheist claims that there is no god at all, which makes him/her every bit as delusional, according to psychiatry, as a christian who claims god created everything.

seems that you ,like most americans, missunderstand the 'separation clause' in the first amendment. perry is the governor as a profession. he is not 'the government.' as any citizen he is free to speak openly about his religion so long as he does so outside a government sponsored venue.

neither of these quotes can possibly be construed to suggest that eisnstein was an atheist. at best, one would reasonably conclude that einstein denied a belief in god but one thing an agnostic is is someone who has no belief in god. that an atheist has no belief in god either is moot. the difference being that an agnostic thinks that such a belief is not knowable where an atheist believes there is no god [strong atheist] or does not believe there is a god but could be convinced with enough evidence [weak atheist]. neither hawking or einstein can be pinned down to either with the quotes you used.

I was agnostic as a child then became an atheist at the age of 13 cause i came to the conclusion that there is no God,period.Theres more to the story but i don't feel like typing the whole thing.

I was raised Baptist and Catholic simultaneously. Baptized to both religions, one at birth and one at about 7 or 8. One religion on my mothers side and the other on my fathers. It never really meshed with me when I was young this being in the sky who scares the bejesus out of everyone and watches you all the time. Then as I got older and started realizing what they were teaching then I really started questioning everything. It is not feasible that mankind was born of incest, scientifically or otherwise. A being of this magnitude would not curse women nor treat them as second to a man knowing she is the creator and carrier and raiser of life itself. This god doesn't understand women, nor respect women, nor consider them of much worth at all. This god has a temper over not being held above all else? Childish and manish, not goddish As I grew to understand the bible I realized it was all man, no god.

I spent most of this time being as a classified agnostic but I felt deep down that there wasn't a god or gods. Confused and feeling as though I was committing sacrilege for not having this faith of this belief. I search for the right religion figuring maybe my issue was with the Christian god but still did not find that epiphany of feeling this being or beings. It was a weight on me spiritually having to suffer the Christian religion. Shackling me to falsehood and hypocrisy.

I was diagnosed with MS in 2002 after having some severe symptoms that were misdiagnosed for a few years before. I got very sick, lost everything and ended up basically homeless. But was too sick to really change anything. My friend took me in, she had a mat on the floor in her basement which was basically a storage room. I was too sick to change anything there. I laid in the basement and was so sick that I asked god to take me. It had been months since I could enjoy anything in life, feeling so terrible every day with no hope of change in sight, I was ready to let the fight go. It was during this time of extreme stress and sickness that I felt/realized completely and spiritually that there is no being in the sky but there is the energy in each of us. I could feel mine as weak and tortured as it was. I could also feel that I wasn't going to die. It was no miracle believe me I was still as sick as could be but letting go of the false idea of the being in the sky took a weight off my spirit and it was one less stress for me to deal with. It lifted me at that level and that made the other stressors a bit easier.

As my spirit became healthier through analysis and searching after this epiphany I started to work on this life energy that I felt. I realized that when I gave out positive energy (interactions) with those around me even though I was so sick, it made me feel better. My physical did not improve for two years but spiritually I grew and grew. When I found the helpful information I needed to help myself out naturally with natural "medicine" and my body started to get better, my spirit was strong enough to help make all the connections between physical, emotional, mental and spiritual and I was better than before I got sick. Not physically what would be considered "normal" but I appreciated that I could walk still, I almost lost it, I appreciated that my mind cleared enough to pay my bills, I appreciate that although there will always be pain, I am able to get through it with the power of my mind and spirit and not narcotics, which I refused all along. Etc....

So after all of this, the energy of life that I identified and feel and that interacts and reacts to others energy is still with me. I feel spiritually free of the shackles of religion and more at peace with myself and the world around me. I feed my spirit and others positivity and I feel the return of the positive.

And here we are. There is no larger than life being in the sky that beats us down with impunity and denies us being human with guilt trips and hypocrisy.

And it is good

I would have to say the same happened to me. I put the experience up in "who are you".

i didn't pick my path, it picked me

so you bring the browinies to the 420 thread, and i'll twist one up...

That's how I roll when I am bouncing on my fourteens!

:)