Whenever I've run into someone who can't see those, I tell them to focus behind the picture. (I think that's what Muerte meant by "relax focus") If they can grasp that concept at all, it usually works.

Well, I'm certainly not in a position to argue against that.



Well, if you read "The Inflationary Universe", by Alan Guth (the physicist that gave birth to the idea of Inflation Theory), you'll see that he never claims that it came from "nothing". On the contrary he postulates that it came from a "quantum fluctuation".

But along with that, comes the necessary premise that the laws of quantum mechanics were already in place before the birth of this universe.

So unless you consider the 'quantum field' (and its behavioral laws) to be "nothing", it would be incorrect to say that Inflation Theory suggests that the unviverse came from "nothing".

Inflation Theory actually postulates that the quantum field has always existed, and the unvierse came out of the quantum field.

I personally feel that this is indeed the best theory we have to date, and I think Alan Guth is every bit as brilliant as Einstein or Newton. I admire the man greatly for his brilliant work!

Alan Guth is right up there on my list of Super Great Scientists.

If you can see the 3-D pictures, try helping someone who just can't see them to see them. It's not easy.

I said you are correct. This particular "physical" universe may not be "infinite." Don't be so quick to judge my logic when I am in agreement with you.

However, this is not the only universe.

If you are speaking only of the physical universe you are probably correct.

But this is probably a multi-dimensional infinite universe.

Have you ever seen those pictures that when you stare at them in a certain way a three dimensional picture appears? Can you see the picture? I can. I have often attempted to help someone else see the picture and nothing I do or say or describe seems to help them see it.

This is the way I feel trying to get people to see what I see about this reality and this universe. If you can't see, you just can't see. There is no way I can make a person see that three dimensional picture if they can't see it.

What happened? Order came from chaos? How do you know?

How do you know that there was ever chaos to begin with?

What was chaotic? The big bang?

You don't know that.

Even if you accept the big bang, all you know is that energy and atoms were scattered far and wide. But if the atoms (or the rules and laws that determine what their shapes and properties will be) could have always been in place.

If that's the case, then there was never any genuine 'chaos' at all.

So we don't know that it happened.

We don't know with certainty that there was ever a time when things were ever chaotic in the deepest sense and meaning of that.

So we can't really say whether it ever happened or not.

It's anybody's guess. Scientists don't know.

In fact, the best theory we have to date is Inflation Theory and Inflation Theory starts out by suggesing that this universe began as a 'quantum fluctuation' in the quantum field. So it presumes that the laws of Quantum Mechanics pre-existed the Big Bang. If that's true (it may or may not be true), but if it is true, then there's no reason to believe that there was ever any chaos at any point in the entire process. At least not on the scale of defining what this univese would ultimately be like.

So you can't just say, "It happened".

In truth, we don't know whether order came from chaos or not.

So while you can claim you 'see no evidence of intelligent design' neither can you disprove my claim. And my claim will remain until you can come up with something that works.

What's the mathematical probability that a mere 100 random atoms would be related to each other in such a close-knit meaningful way?

Well, we already saw from Number Theory that the probability is zero. Completely zero. The actual mathematical proof of that is actually given in the video that I cited above. And the prove is easy to follow (although it does appeal to a calclus limit, but it's a truly simple and obvious limit that is quite intuitive even if a person isn't educated in calculus). wink

A lifetime of contemplating the subject.

Parroting 'quantum mechanics' 'string theory' 'general and special relativity' proves NOTHING. What do you take me for?

Why would you believe that? Where is your evidence for that?

If order comes from chaos it is because IT IS DESIGNED TO DO SO.

It was a joke, Jack.

Does water have consciousness?

Yep if you don't believe that come look at my house.

(But its mostly chaos.)

Of course if I didn't do anything about it, chaos it would remain.

Therefore, I am using some intelligence to create some order today.

Thank you.

((Of course I don't assume you mean scientific evidence when you say evidence. I am an investigator, not a scientist. My evidence goes into a court of law.))

evidence and proof are the same thing...lol

No, actually it is a copy paste from "Science of the Subjective"
By:
Robert G. Jahn and Brenda J. Dunne

Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) Laboratory
School of Engineering and Applied Science, Princeton University