If you don't like the word sin you can refer to them as something else I guess, Wrongful deeds, Acts of Maliciousness, or someone just being a jerk. Sins are not only associated with religious law, they also apply to morality and common sense. Sinning is just the word associated with doing something morally wrong. How can you not believe that people do horrible things just for the sake of doing horrible things?

It's not simply as black and white as you are putting it. Everybody sins, Even the most religious church goers sin. Priests and deacons sin, Hell even the pope will slip up once in awhile. If it was as simple as If you sin you will go to hell and be damned for all eternity then there would be no need for heaven at all. Everyone would be saunaing in hell.

Besides according to the bible Jesus turned water to wine, I am thinking they don't rank drinking on their list of unforgiveable sins

Well I guess that depends on what you mean by following the rules of christianity? You mean like the 10 commandments? Like thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet they neighbors wife, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt honor thy father and mother. That kind of stuff? Because that all seems like common sense that a decent human being would follow anyway regardless of what religion they are or lack of religion.

For example. I am not a Christian, I am even in fact wavering in all my religious beliefs as of late as I try to make sense of it all but just because I am not christian doesn't mean I am running around town murdering people and sleeping with other peoples wives. So would I be in turn following the rules of the religion? I think you need to be a little more specific in what rules you are talking about.

Very true, I met her on here and she is very very knowledgeable about what she does. She also runs an MSN group called The triple goddess you should check out. Fun gal to talk to.

There will not be a heaven or hell due to the judgemental and condescending attitude this creates in the religious.

Check, not so much because of the condescending attitudes it creates but I don't believe in a concept of heaven or hell

There will not be one book of worship to be held in higher standards than all others. Reading all books of worship/or not of worship and deciphering for oneself the personal enlightenment of each will be highly recommended but not a requirement.

Check, We have no set book that we all look too. Knowledge and bettering ourselves through many sources is wanted.

There will be no assumptions that this religion is the moral and ethical control of the nation. Believing all people should actually use their own brain for a point of reference for morality. The main concern recommended here will be to not harm others mentally, emotionally or physically.

Check. We believe that all religions have validity in the people that believe them and it is their path to choose

There will not be a punitive god represented here. Any and all gods of this religion will be loving and supportive of it's followers. Of course, no god is required for this religion. All who choose to have one will not utilize their god to condescend or judge others who choose not to have a god as their idol.

Check. This is a polytheastic(SP) religion where the gods act with each other to help support balance or in some cases the people don't believe in a god persay as much as there being a higher energy out there.

There will not be a preacher as all who are members bring with them their own unique and interesting perspectives so all will be the teachers and the students.

Check. Anyone who has something to teach is welcome to share their knowledge with any who wants to learn.

There will not be collections as this religion will consist of those who help themselves and others at their own discretion and we do not want a "business" of bilking people to ever become an issue.

Check. We have no collections toward anything. All we contribute is knowledge

This will be a free religion that frees the mind to discover it's own soul and creative ability.

Check. Our destiny is our own to make. As long as you are working to better your mind and discover what is in your sould you are doing great.

Again all are free to join, share and express the wonders of humanity and the world we live in.

And Check. Anyone who finds this religion on their soul searching path is accepted.

Man Dragoness, where did you say you were reading about this religion because it sounds like mine down to a T. So yes, I would say that those aspects in a religion sound very great!!

Darn Spider, you beat me to it. I was just about to ask this same question. The thing is presented with any situation there are always at least two choices. To do that thing or do not do that thing. I am confused what you mean by only having one choice. Are you using an example as in someone is holding a gun to your head and says "if you do not do this thing, you will die" or are you literally saying that you can ONLY pick one thing.

Even in the situation of the gunman, you have a choice to do the thing you don't want to do and live or you have the choice to stay true to your beliefs and die. I mean like spider I can't think of a single situation where you have no choice at all. Even if that choice is to close all the blinds in your house and cut yourself off from the world to avoid doing something that seems to only have one option.

Well on that note, the other side of the spectrum. You are saying that you should always follow what you feel is morally right, and as long as your parents are not "evil" or "unwise" you should listen to them. Although how is a little child supposed to distinguish what is "evil" or "unwise"

If the child was raised from the time he/she was born that theft, racism, murder, and any other horrible crime was perfectly fine and that they shouldn't care what anyone else thinks. Then to that child these things may seem moral and reasonable and they are trying to be oppressed by society. At that point who is classified as the free thinker. Both groups of people truly believe what they are doing is morally acceptable and that the other person is wrong.

I know based on what you are saying the child that was raised to be dishonest and mean would be labeled as a group thinker. Although what if that child truly believes what he is doing is acceptable. Then they are two free thinkers on two ends of the spectrum.

Not a problem Spider, Even though I have not been posting much I have been circulating around these forums and have come to enjoy many of your posts and questions you raise. Especially the debates that go on between you and Abra and from what I have seen I couldn't agree that you would fall under a group thinker label.

On that note, I understand the position that Jeannie is coming from especially after her very detailed break down of what the difference between a free thinker and a group thinker is. Although like I said earlier I think that that line is a little to narrow to be able to distinguish who is what.

For example.

"A group thinker, goes along with the group whether or not it makes sense to him or not.

A group thinker obeys his authority...or disobeys it an feels bad or guilty or takes his punishment.

A group thinker will do things under the command of his authority that his conscience tells him is wrong.

A group thinker will hold things in his thought that goes against his deeper feelings if he is told to by his authority."

That is saying that everyone that in our military system is a group thinker, that we have no individuals serving our country that can form a free thought. Although I don't believe that is true. I believe every soldier we have is a free thinker. Afterall no one forced them to join up to defend our country. However once they are there they are agreeing to listen to thier commanding officers and I believe violating an order is grounds for a dishonerable discharge if I am not mistaken. Even free thinkers sometimes have to do something they don't agree with.

The only group of people I would in good conscience be able to classify as group thinkings are pre-teen children and certain people with mental disablities as they really do have no understanding of the world around them and they are happy to just do what they are told.

"Why anyone would choose to "be insulted" by what I think is beyond me. Everyone has free will. Unfortunately not everyone uses it. They simply believe what they are told and they follow the leader. I am not directing this remark to Christians either. All people do this.

It takes a strong individual to break away from the group mind and question the logic of what they have been taught by a powerful authority. This fact has been proven in scientific experiments.

You can read about the experiments in a book called "Obedience to Authority, an experimental view" by Stanley Milgram 1974 put out by Yale University. The implications of these experiments is shocking and revealing of how the group mind works and how it obeys an authority without question even if it goes against their moral judgements.

I will continue to always say what I think. I may be wrong in what I think. But I have good reasons to think what I think. I know what I know. My opinions are my opinions. You can give them weight and be offended or you can dismiss them. That is up to the individual.

I want people to be free. I want people to learn to think for themselves and break out of the group mind and break away from the authority of others. You are your own final authority. You make the decisions. Be free as you were meant to be."

Jeannie




My question then would be how do you differentiate between a free thinker and a group thinker. People can have free forming thoughts that agree with other people, or vice versa someone could tell something to another person. That person thinks about what they were told and decides that really makes sense to them and that they choose to believe it. Does that make them a group thinker just because they decided to agree with a group?

We all have to be free thinkers to decide what we want to believe. Even from what we were told from a young age. For example, I was raised Catholic, I was always told this is the way things are. About the time I turned 14 and was finally starting to think for myself I decided that the things I was being told didn't make sense to me. So I went out I did research and I found what fit and from the time I was 14 I have considered myself Wiccan. Now I believe in my religion and I will defend it as adamantly as anyone else but does that mean that because I believe in the Wiccan religion and other members of the Wiccan religion I am now a group thinker? I would think that because of the fact I took it upon myself to do the research and find what fits best for me it would make me a free thinker but I still belong to and think like another group.

It just seems to me that the whole line between a free thinker and a group thinker is a tad too narrow. I don't think I have ever met or talked to anyone in my life that I would consider a total group thinker. Even someone like Spider. From his posts I have read I would not classify him as a group thinker at all. He has free forming thoughts and opinions that he defends to the best of his ability despite the fact that he seems to rub people the wrong way. (Spider if I am incorrect in my assessment I am sorry)

"To me he seems like a person who will say what he thinks, He may be wrong in what he thinks but I am sure he has good reasons to think what he thinks. His opinions are his opinions."

He may think differently than all of us but thats what seperates him and the rest of us from the group mindset.

*Claps* very well written.

Warewolf, I have to commend you on this. It is refreshing to see some families that still think like this. I don't see it very often and I wish my parents had done such a thing with me. Although I intend to do the same thing with my children. It is far better to encourage individuality and self thinking at as early an age as possible but not many do. So you sir I applaud and I hope to see more of this from other families if the future as the world starts to become more accepting of people's differences.

It seems like most people on here believe that morality is taught by a cultural standpoint, which I believe that there is something to that. Although I believe that everybody has an inner sense of what is right and wrong that varies from person to person. However people will go along with something they believe is wrong based on the society they are in, Whether it be that they want to just fit in or they are fearful of retaliation if they differ from the viewpoints of others.

So in a sense morality is taught but on a much lower scale than what someone knows in their heart to be right. There has always been a sense of what is right and what is wrong and people choose whether or not to listen to thier inner self. It just seems that the level of morality a society has is based on who is in charge of that society at any given time. I know what I believe to be moral and immoral and I also know that my views differ from that of some of my friends. However, we all have to follow the same laws or face the consequeces

Thank you GeminiGoddess, Very valuable and important information. Especially for somebody new to the craft. Your wisdom is apprciated.

Blessed Be and Merry Meet!

I am Wiccan and would love to chat with anyone that is interested. I am fairly new to this site (I know my joined date is back in july but I must have signed up and forgot about it because I just came here to make an account a few days ago and was told I already had one so here I am again!) so sadly I have slacked on getting my profile information updated but I will do that shortly. however I will definately be checking my mail and respond to anyone that writes me.